Roofing Success

Roofing’s Biggest Traps: Bad Leads, Denied Roofs, and Weak Culture with Jason Eustis

• Jim Ahlin • Episode 277

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What happens when a true craftsman teams up with private equity?

Jason Eustis, President of Eustis Roofing, shares how they scaled from $30M to $60M without sacrificing install quality or company culture.

You’ll hear how he built the business around installers, turned repairs into a lead generation machine, and why they treat every roof like a 15-year marriage instead of a one-day job.

Jason also explains how they fight denied insurance claims, avoid bad leads, and why many KPIs can be misleading.

If you want to build a strong team, protect your brand, and deliver high-level service at scale, this episode is for you.


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https://www.facebook.com/EustisRoofing
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRuMFZ4N4Sa5_sUuoxGtL9w

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SPEAKER_00:

How do we create an atmosphere where those guys and girls want to work here? Because ultimately that's what the vulnerable is looking for is a great install. And so that in order to control that process, we had to create a culture that people wanted to work here. We see insurance companies here recently where they deny roofs that are only seven to ten years old because they're just dirty. They don't actually have you know the roofing knowledge to go, hey, something's wrong with that roof. And so for us, we want to solve that problem. You're gonna have to spend a whole lot more marketing dollars on your new brand or your new area than you are on your legacy account or where you've been roofing.

SPEAKER_05:

And so, what happens when a true roofing craftsman partners with private equity and doubles revenue from 30 million to 60 million without compromising on installation quality? In this episode, we sit down with Jason Eustace to explore what it really takes to scale a roofing company from old school roots to elite operational sophistication, all while keeping craftsmanship at the center. Jason is the president of Eustace Roofing, one of Florida's most respected legacy roofing companies, and now a regional hub for Vertex service partners. With over 200 installers, a full repair division, and a service mindset, Jason is proving that roofing isn't just a transaction, it's a long-term relationship. From treating every customer like they're entering a marriage to developing project manager training that rivals sales bootcamps, Jason's leadership is reshaping what white glove service looks like in roofing. This episode is packed with insights on retention, training, legacy marketing, and building a brand customers return to even a decade later. Let's dive in with Jason Eustace, Eustace Roofing. Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alean and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business.

SPEAKER_04:

Jason Eustace, how's it going today, man? Man, it's great. It's beautiful here in Florida and happy to be on the show. I was just looking, man.

SPEAKER_05:

It has been a while since we have spoken live on air. It's been since January of 2021, since your episode first aired. Uh episode 30 of the Roofing Success Podcast. So for people who haven't or don't have exposure to Jason, he's a little embarrassed about this one because it was early. It was early in his days of uh of getting uh getting out there and and and uh you know I get getting out there on video and and social media and stuff like that. But uh I thought it was fantastic, man. So many gold nuggets in there. What's been going on since uh January of 2021?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think a lot's changed, especially in the roofing industry, especially for us. Um, I know if anybody hasn't gotten into what we've been up to lately, we definitely joined private equity and got into that area and seen a tremendous growth. Uh, a lot of good things that came from that and and still are. So that's kind of where we're at now, which you're you're seeing with most roofing companies that uh got pretty large, just like us, um, now have joined equity. And I call it a partnership. A lot of people always say, like, hey, there's a you guys sold out. Not at all. Like I reinvested, and so still happy to be a part of Eustace. And you know, the bigger picture for us now is what we call Vertex, which is the equity group we're a part of. And how do we grow Vertex with 28 other companies right now? And how do we all share information that we can all get better?

SPEAKER_05:

It's a fantastic uh, you know. I've spoken, I know a few people in the vertex group, and it and and man, it it's like you guys almost have a mastermind of your own, right? Like with some of the owners that are in there. It's like these are some of the smartest people in the industry. It's been a great, uh, I've seen a great partnership be put together in that in that regard. That makes me think of something, you know. As you uh I don't know, I can't where where about where were you guys maybe team and revenue-wise back there in 2021, if you remember.

SPEAKER_00:

I think I think we were around probably 2021, probably around 18 million. Um, we got to 30 million before we partnered, and we're tracking to to hit 60 is our goal now for Eustace. Okay. And so we've had two new locations open up, and we've kind of created a hub for Florida that comes through Eustace to help the other companies. A lot of great companies here in Florida. We've got one named Kairos in South Florida, really an amazing company, difficult area to work, Miami Dade. So we've learned a lot from them, to be honest, from code, wind up lift, stuff like that. And then we have another amazing company over in Tampa, which is called Handyman Roofing. And so it's been a great experience, honestly, for all of us to team up, get to know each other, work together. Um, I've actually had jobs that we got that came from Tampa and was able to work with Handyman on those and very, very quality companies. And that's what I love about this group. A lot of older companies, um, there's the handyman group is a pretty old company. Um, so they have that like roofing part to them where you're not seeing that a lot with roofing companies. You mostly see roofing companies more marketing and sales. And I really love the true roofers that that have the centuries of ways of doing the art of roofing and like keeping that growing. And so that's a big part of Eustace.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, you you've done a fantastic job of that. We talked a lot about that uh around your team structure and kind of running it like a NASCAR team with your background in in that and in in the first episode and and and and getting the team firing on all cylinders for for black better analogy, but like uh, you know, what are some of those things that that let's talk about your your structure first from a team perspective and and what went into that from a thought process? Like, how did you how did you initially think about building out an internal team, everyone's in-house, um to how it's evolved over time?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, for me, you know, honestly working on the roof and spending a lot of nights helping the guys finish up or or even spending days on the roof made me really appreciate the roofers themselves and felt like that's the biggest difference for the homeowner. And how do we create an atmosphere with those guys and girls want to work here? Because ultimately that's what the homeowner is looking for, is a great install. And so, the order to control that process, we had to create a culture that people wanted to work here, and then we can kind of pick and choose the A players to install roofs, and a lot of your problems within roofing companies start to go away when you have really great people installing the roofs. And so for me, I've always looked at those guys as athletes, those are the guys and girls that are in the arena. And how do we support those people so they they can deliver that product to the customers? So, and then we built an office team uh later, like a management team that gets in there and helps out project managers, but started with the crews and creating an atmosphere where they all wanted to work here in this area. And so when I first got here, there was only six people that would install roofs and they were very hard to come by. And probably only one person on the crew actually knew how to install a roof. The rest were there. One would drive the trailer and one would tear off. And so, you know, if somebody was sick, it was a difficult day for the customer for us to get the roof installed. And so for me, it's like, how do we create a six-man group or 10-man group that are all roofers? Make this process a lot more streamlined. And so that was my first focus was on the install itself. And then um later on started producing content that really talked about that and really got to the installers themselves. And most of the time, people think you're trying to get a customer, and you are, but at the end of the day, too, you're trying to get through to the people that work with you, that work alongside of you, that install the roof, not just sales. So Eustace was built from installation side, not from the sales side. Private equity has brought the sales side to us. That that's something that I didn't have a lot of experience in. I was able to market pretty well with a low budget. But my main um way of doing business was how do we support the installers? How do we make sure that those are all a players? Because that's what the customer wants the most is a really good install.

SPEAKER_05:

That's amazing. So you starting with the the build, right? Starting with a quality product, I mean, that grew you guys to 30 million. So you there was some sales of marketing going on, you know, uh at the same time. Uh, you know, you know, of course, you know me from many years of the the best known roofer stuff. Like you have to, you know, the the you could be you could install the best roof, but if no one knows who you are, you guys balance that in in a lot of ways, uh, whether you express that or not. And maybe it was maybe it was that you did such a good job that you know people start people referred you a lot or whatever that that formula was. I think that's there's a few challenging things from the labor perspective that I think pee a lot of contractors try to avoid. Before we carry on with the episode, let's give a shout out to one of our sponsors. Roofers, let's get real. You're great at building roofs, but are you great at building a steady stream of leads? That's where job numbers marketing comes in. They know the roofing industry inside and out, and they'll help you dominate Google, Facebook, reputation management, and everything in between. If you want more quality leads, more book jobs, and more growth, visit the link in the description or the sponsors page on the Roofing Success Podcast website. I think that's there's a few challenging things from the labor perspective that I think people a lot of contractors try to avoid. They try to outsource, they try to hit the easy button on that subcontractor model, right? It's it's I think that they that's what a lot of it is, is uh what's the easy button in our businesses? And and building a team, how many what is your team of from the installation side look like today? How many people, how you know, team leads versus you know, installers? What what's the structure of it now?

SPEAKER_00:

I would say we probably have around 200 installers, um, somewhere close to that. Um it fluctuates a little bit. We definitely have what what I like to say is, and we talked about this before, is yeah uh when it comes to marketing and drawing in customers and and teammates or employees, we we kind of hit all different areas, and one of them would be uh the repair division. Like um for me, like we didn't always have to sell a roof, but we could maintain and help people that that didn't need a roof, and I felt like that was a big help to us to actually create consumers, you know, two to five years out on the re-roof side. Um, and so really dove deep into the repairs and maintaining roofs. And I think we had like 27 to 30 repair technicians uh somewhere in that realm. And that's been huge on the commercial side too. So we can go in, we can maintain a roof, we can kind of find the problematic areas, uh, keep those from leaking. And then when it comes time for a new roof, we're a key candidate for that. And we know that roof really well. We know where the weak points are and how we can solve those problems on a new build. And really, when you're talking to a customer, that's really beneficial to them is to say, hey, this area's been leaking really bad. We've been here several times. We recommend pulling some of the siding out. We're gonna fix it this way. Where if it's a new competitor that comes in, they're not really gonna have a chance to understand the roof system really well and where it's been leaking. And so we found a lot of benefit in that where we could solve their problems. But honestly, like I never wanted to grow a roofing company that didn't have the quality or that we could actually maintain the customers because to me, it's a marriage when you put a roof on, it's a 15-year marriage. So if they have any issues with the roof, they're gonna be calling you. They spend a considerable amount of money to do it, and I want to be able to service that. And sometimes that's a warranty issue that's our fault. And I didn't want to grow a really big roofing company with that and lose that part of it. And so, always been big on repair department. And honestly, a lot of times they're out there in the field with really nice vehicles, you know, they're wrapped, the guys are professional, and they're actually producing leads themselves. People always say we see you everywhere. Well, typically they're gonna see the repair department driving around town, the crews are parked on a job site. You're not gonna see them as much. So I believe it does a lot for you as far as marketing.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, definitely. It's that I see you everywhere. The truck's on the road, it's like, oh my goodness, you're you're all over the place. But uh it it could it goes hand in hand with what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. I think that that frictionless marketing, right? It's not an extra effort for that marketing, it's just what you're doing on a day-to-day basis, but also having the uh a really good brand presence with your trucks and your your uniforms and your you know and all of the things that you do that way. I want to go into it a little bit. I think this is a big you can tell me if I'm wrong from the contractors that you talk about, that long-term relationship with the customer and that cut and that home, that property, that roof of that property seems to not exist with most contractors. The the relationship is in one to two days and I'm gone. Uh, I even hear that from a a lot of like people that came from the interior remodeling side, right? Like that or or or the building, home building side, and that now they have a roofing company, it's like, man, I don't have to manage so many trades, I'm in and out quick. Where, you know, it's kind of the allure of roofing is that it's a it's it's quick, you're in and out, your cash is back in your pocket, unless you know, it's barring insurance claims and things like that. But like it's a pretty quick cash turnover. There's a lot of advantages to that. What do you see in the industry and how is uh what's your mindset around that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think most companies are kind of built around that. There's uh one interaction with the homeowner, they put the roof and they're gone. And I think that in Florida, we get those hurricanes. Um, we get a lot of wind-blown rain, um, a lot of issues that we can get here in Florida. So for me, I feel like there's a connection for that 15 years. It's every time there's a hurricane, you know, you want them to call you so you can walk and check the roof and make sure they don't have any issues with the roof. You want to document it so you can give that to them and their insurance company. So if there is an issue, you can prove that it was storm-related and it wasn't just out of the blue. Um, and then honestly, for us, we built uh a division where we clean roofs because we can get a lot of moss and mildew and stuff like that on the roof. So we come out and we clean those roofs, maintain those roofs. And then another big factor for us was the ugly roof uh rejuvenation. We spray roofs a lot. So we're maintaining those relationships for over 15 years. And honestly, we see insurance companies here recently where they deny roofs that are only seven to 10 years old because they're just dirty. They don't actually have you know the roofing knowledge to go, hey, something's wrong with that roof. They just think it's bad because it's dirty. And so for us, we want to solve that problem because they're telling the homeowner they have to replace the roof. Now, most roofing companies would support that, would come in and say, Yeah, you have to replace the roof. But for us, like we're actually prideful. Like, we put that roof on seven, 10 years ago, it looks amazing. Like, we don't want to rip that roof off, we want to maintain that roof. So we'll clean the roof and then we'll we'll turn it back in for the insurance to look at it, and it'll change dramatically because the roof is clean and it looks new. And and you know, a lot of times the people from the insurance companies really don't have that knowledge to see through that. And so a simple cleaning will bring that roof back to life. And honestly, too, if we have to, we can rejuvenate it, and that really does a big difference for the roof. And so we've kind of like entered into you know roof repairs. We went to maintain maintenance. Um, we're doing cleanings and rejuvenation, and so any way that we can to stay connected to that homeowner because that warranty was with us and with our manufacturer, and we want to be the only ones walking that roof to maintain it.

SPEAKER_05:

That's a fantastic, fantastic journey there, or you know, thought process on it. What are what are some of the disadvantages or struggles that have come up in running that model? Before we carry on with the episode, let's give a shout out to one of our sponsors. I talk to contractors every day that feels stuck. Not because they're not working hard, but because they're missing the structure to grow without chaos. Or their culture's falling apart because their team's unclear, unaligned, or just burned out. And when change hits, they're reacting instead of leading because time and priorities aren't under their control. Day 41 Thrive helps to fix that with proven strategies for growth, culture, and leadership that actually work. Ready to thrive beyond the storm? Visit the link in the description or visit the Roofing Success Podcast website on the sponsors page to start your journey today. What are some of the disadvantages or struggles that have come up in running that model?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I would say disadvantages. There's not always a huge, uh I would say, profit margin, some of that. Like some of that's just service. Um, honestly, one of the disadvantages is when there's a hurricane, you could have wind blown rain that comes in a window or it comes in a van and never will do it again. And you really don't have a warranty issue. You have a one-off situation, and we're out there trying to fix it. We're not getting paid for that, you know, and so it's a free service that we're out there because honestly, we want to make sure that it actually isn't a roof leak, that it actually isn't caused by us. And so why other competitors are out chasing new leads, we're out there trying to service the customers that we've already worked for, and that can really hinder you to take care of more homeowners. So that is the disadvantage. I spend a lot of my time too, you know, going out to job sites where we maybe put the roof on 10 years ago, and it's something odd in the siding or in the stucco crack, and it's not really the roof, but we will chase it until we find it. And sometimes we're fixing stucco and it really isn't a roof issue, and and that's just part of that service.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. So I that's the disadvantages. What have been the advantages? And now I would assume that you know, now with private equity, they love to measure everything, right? Like there has to be a metric for every single thing. Have there been any metrics that you've gotten to implement or measure that has shown the benefits of running this model?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that there is no doubt that there is a metric for everything. And that's one of the things that made us really amazing from the private equity side. They've really brought a lot of tools to measure things. Sometimes those tools can be misleading. And so that's why I like to like plug in the experience, right? Like, honestly, like I've seen this happen in our space a ton of times where people plugged in the marketing side and the sales side really well, but didn't service the customer right. And then honestly, over time, those KPIs changed. The close rates went down, but realistically, it was because of warranty calls and people weren't happy with them that made that KPI change, and they thought it was their sales department. In reality, they just weren't putting good roofs on. And so for me, I like to make those connections from the experience. And I feel like I'm a good partner with private equity because I can do that, I can show that. Um, but KPI-wise, um it's our we have like legacy numbers that like uh people recommend us and stuff like that. So we can measure those and we can see that you know, a good 80% of our leads are coming through our legacy number or our truck, our wraps, you know, stuff like that. Um, and we can run that back. And you can have different phone numbers on your repair department so that you can see if it is coming back from referrals, from repairs, stuff like that. So KPI-wise, it's it's been amazing. However, you can get lost in KPIs. And um, for me, like I said, it's for me, I try to connect the the two together because marketing and sales, roofing, people forget that you actually have to install roofs in this industry. It's not just about sales. And so I always try to be the guy that like brings that awareness in that.

SPEAKER_05:

So when you do the numbers there, like if that that's crazy when you're talking about a$60 billion company, right? That from an 80% that 80% perspective coming in from that legacy client perspective, that's$45,$50 million of revenue that's coming in through that through that uh that revenue generation. And and like people always I get into these conversations all the time, and and it it's like what is what are some of the things that lead to success in in roofing? And and the first thing is the care for the customer, and that's your care of the installation process and the quality installation and and taking care of them from the repair all the way through, you know, the replacement, like that that of all like that's a common thread with all the people that that I've interviewed and had conversations with at different conferences and things like that. But the other one, it's the the metric of it's it's the the the contractors that are best at turning one into many are the ones that win. It's not the ones that have the best Facebook ads campaign and drive the most leads, it's the ones that take that Facebook ads campaign and now over time they've created new customers, they delivered an exceptional customer experience, and then they keep coming back or referring them. And to build 45, 50 million dollars of that is kind of what you did. That doesn't happen overnight though. That sucks, Jason. Why can't this happen overnight? Like, can't I just go and buy my database of custom like talk about the evolution of that uh of your customer database over time? And you know, how I mean you've been around for a long time now. How how has this, you know, how has it gone from those first, you know, those first customers and and and then with the intentionality that you guys have had over the years into what happens now?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I and from firsthand experience when we started new branches and new areas, I had to learn how valuable that time was and creating that. Like because it was really, really hard to start up. And so we didn't realize how good we had it until we started our new locations, our green fields, how how well we were connected to the community. Um, starting new roofing companies in new areas is really hard. And we learned that as a as a whole in Vertex. Um, we it's it's not easy. Um, but what I can go back and say is marketing has changed a ton in roofing since the last time we talked. Yeah. So, you know, seven years ago I started making content and there was nobody making content. Now, today, everybody's making content. But what I can say is there's very few that are making content about problematic areas on the roof that are actually on the roof talking about roofing issues. And I think that can make you different than most competitors. I think a lot of people on the ground pointing to the roof, how we're the best because of the shingle or whatnot. And honestly, what's gonna solve the homeowner's problem is you solving the problematic areas, what I would call dead valleys, chimney flashing. We're not seeing a ton of knowledge in that. And for me, I think that's the best way to get to a customer is to be the expert. Like, and and honestly, like people will show up and they're like, hey, Jason, he's in my hometown. This is amazing. I'm gonna use this company. And over time, we've been able to cultivate that. Like, we're not just your local roofing company, like we're helping people across the country. Like, we're invested in this for a long term. And so I think content has changed. I think that we used to invest very little in marketing, and I think that's changed, definitely has changed. I've seen, you know, for me, I was always like 1% and under our revenue is what I'd invest, but that definitely has changed, and it's much harder to get in front of the homeowner than in the past. And so roofing's changed a ton there. And it's really important to be the first one to the homeowner. So homeowners are making faster decisions than they were in the past, and so you want to be there in front of them before anybody else. Um, and then for us, we even built a call center that's really effective at taking the calls, tracking the KPIs, amount of calls came, amount of scheduling, amount of demo. Like we can look at the whole scenario. Um, and so it would be really hard for me to compete against um what we've seen built here in the last two years after joining private equity. So I I think they have a really good uh resources on the front end of the business. But for me, like I don't think anybody really has the tools on the back end to really produce that roof. And so for me, it was like, how do we take the things that we're learning on the sales size, sales side, and plug it into the install? And so we created a two-week course where any new project manager has to go through that course as a class. And so, you know, if you're looking in equity or roofing companies, they're creating those for the sales, but are they creating those for you know your project managers and stuff like that? And so that's one of the ways that I've been able to plug in. And one of the things I respect a lot about Vertex is they want that white glove service, they want to transfer that to the homeowner. And I feel like you know, keeping some of these roofing owners on or roofing um professionals, they can get some of that knowledge and and not only build the sales side, but actually become a better installer at the same time. That makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_05:

There's a lot, a lot, a lot that you just said there. Um let's start with because we were talking about the the development of a brand in a market. Let's go back to that first. You you learned you didn't realize how hard it would be when you opened up a new market, right? Because being in the market that you're in for so long, you just kind of had that slow, steady, right? Like you just did develop that one handshake at a time, right? Like just one, just you know, over time and over time and over time, and being there and living there and and um how can or how have you looked at now when we go and open a new branch, how can we accelerate that uh presence in the market? How has that changed? Can you take the content that you're creating and and just put it in front of those people? Can you take that that that that that educational content and re reshoot it for uh you know this area or that area? What what you know what are you what's the how do we accelerate that now that you've you've built it, you've opened up the new area, you saw the challenges, how could someone accelerate that? I know you're enjoying the episode, but let's give a shout out to another one of our sponsors. As a roofing marketing agency owner and coach, I've seen it all. Great marketing wasted because no one follows up fast enough. That's why I built Power Up Agents, not just a receptionist. RAI handles the entire customer journey from answering the first call to booking the job to post job surveys and reviews. 24-7, inbound, outbound, even multilingual. If you want leads followed up instantly and customers nurtured automatically, visit the link in the description or visit the sponsors page on the Roofing Success Podcast website. Your full AI team is ready. How do we accelerate that now that you've you've built it, you've opened up the new area, you saw the challenges. How could someone accelerate that now that you've seen it?

SPEAKER_00:

I think you have to have realistic goals. And a lot of people want overnight success. And when it comes to marketing and getting your brand and awareness, you have to plan on, you know, like for me, I would plan on a three-year progressive where I want to go. And content is great, you can put it in front of people. That's always helpful. But what I found works the best is really plugging into community events, and it's a big investment, too. So you're gonna have to spend a whole lot more marketing dollars on your new brand or your new area than you are on your legacy account or where you've been roofing. And so it's it's new for somebody that hasn't invested a lot, and it's hard to understand you're gonna spend this kind of money. But if you look at it from a three to five year goal, it makes more sense at that point in time because you're gonna reach those goals later. So even with private equity, they want instant results, and you're not typically going to get that in a new area. You gotta, it's gonna take some time. So for me, um, we hired somebody that goes to all the events and sets up and meets new customers, you get a ton from that. Um, we're part of the baseball teams or the softball teams. A big one for me is um, you know, obviously we're in Florida, so the retirement capital of the world. And so they have like um your your elderly play like some softball. And so that's been a big one for us where we get involved in that, right? Like all of those, you're just involved in many different things instead of uh one specific thing. And I think marketing in general has changed where you have to be involved in just about everything with your brand and And so in the new areas, we spend a ton of time at community events, Christmas parades, any kind of you know events that are happening, but we show up really well, like professional. We've seen roofing companies just show up with, you know, a small tent and they really don't have anything to give away or anything that's impactful. And for us, we got to show up really well. And for instance, in Orlando, um, we connected with all the local radio stations and we did free roof giveaways and we helped people that were in need, and then we set up events there. We had the police department there, the fire department there, getting support from the city itself. So you can't just show up to events, you really got to push hard and and figure out what makes you unique. And honestly, too, we go back to the repairs and the roof cleaning and the roof maintenance, all of that all plugs in together along with your content. So it's multiple touches to the homeowner. I want to say like five touches typically get you in front of the homeowner. So it's not just one thing, but it is really, really hard, especially with private equity in the marketplace. They're doing a really good job reaching the customer before you're a local roofer.

SPEAKER_05:

What are the things that are most important in those? You you mentioned like the thing that showing up professionally, uh maybe giving things away, your offers at those events, uh, the the awareness from a free roof giveaway. There's some things like that that I think uh you you kind of mentioned are would you say that those are the most important things from a brand perspective? And then what else what else from a trust perspective? Because there's like seeing you everywhere will will evoke trust. But you know, when you go into a new market, you have a new Google business profile with zero reviews on it. Like, how are you, you you know, what there's also a lack of trust in that, also. How are you how are you managing that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you try to bring the trust from your legacy um where you're doing current business at. So, like for us, we've been doing this for 60 over 65 years. So we're talking about that and the content into the new area. So we're not just a new roofer, we're just new to this area. Um, and then as far as the Google goes, you're 100% right. Like, we focused a lot into building that foundation when it comes to Google. How do we get the most amount of uh reviews that we can? And we still do that everywhere we go today. It's constantly, I think we meet twice a week on reviews, and how do we get better reviews and how do we do a better job? Um, and so in new areas, we're working on that intentionally right off the bat. Like, even from the salesperson that goes to the call, hey, can you review me? We haven't even done the roof yet, and we're asking for a review, which is kind of awkward. But like if we did a good job and we talked you through it, like it's okay to give us a review. You can change it if you have to, you know, if that's the if that's the case. So we're asking from the minute that we meet the homeowner as far as the sales, and then when the job's complete, we're asking for it again. Um, there's incentives there for everybody that works here, including the homeowner. And I don't feel like you can really get off the ground as a new company without that first hundred reviews. I think it takes those first hundred before you're really solidified to the homeowner that they can trust you and they can see people have been taken care of. So to me, that is like the foundation of a roofing company because let's face it, roofing companies haven't done a good job at that. And it is really hard because it's major construction on somebody's home. And so you're gonna you're gonna have nails, you're gonna have maybe you uh affected the grass or the garden or whatever it may be. Like it's already a huge uh uphill battle for you as a roofing contractor. And so if you can get really good reviews and work really hard at it, you're gonna set your yourself apart instantly. And then honestly, like I've seen a lot of people, if you get a bad review, like it's okay to make some content around it and how you fixed it, and then how do you respond? Like, we have bad reviews, and we go and we do everything we can to make it right for the customer. And some people you just can't make happy. You can see that in the review, and how do you respond? And so we make sure that we respond to every review. If there is a bad review, it directly comes to my email, and then we're instant action. How do we take care of this? And integrity before profit is a big one. So we're gonna go out there as many times as we need to, whatever we got to, whatever we have to do to solve it for the homeowner. And a lot of times we can get those changed because you know, not everybody's gonna have a great experience. It's about what you do if something goes wrong. And for me, if you got a really good project manager and they're building trust from the beginning with the homeowner, something goes wrong, they should be able to solve it. You shouldn't try to build trust after something goes wrong, for sure.

SPEAKER_05:

And setting the expectation, I think, that you will solve the problem when or if something goes wrong, right? This is construction, this is this is a major project for your home. Like we will, if something happens, here's here, talk to your project manager. I'm here to help you. Let's get this solved. A hundred reviews, minimum, everyone. Minimum. Stop it, stop with this. I uh people don't leave me. You got to get to a hundred minimum. I I like to say, Jason, I like to tell people to to Google themselves in their area and set goals based on the other Google uh the other companies that show up near them, right? And usually that first goal is that three-figure mark, that hundred, that hundred mark. And then then there'll be, you know, a couple of outliers that are in the mid hundreds, three, five hundred reviews. And then you get to some of the big, bigger, bigger companies who've just really been aggressive with their review collection. And you know, there's a few over a thousand now. And you know, boy, that feels like a big gap if you're a newer company. But getting to that first hundred and just at least having that presence that you're you're you're you're you're playing on the field, right? You may be a rookie, but you're playing on the field. We're we're in the professional game now. Um, let's talk a little bit more about your project management course and training your team. A lot of people, like you said, focus on that sales side, right? Like we're it's there's an onboarding and training process and ongoing training for that sales team. How do you develop a good training program for the installation side for your project managers and installers? I know you're enjoying the episode, but let's give a shout out to another one of our sponsors. If you and your team aren't trained on AI yet, you're already falling behind. Competitors using AI are generating more leads, closing jobs faster, and running leaner. The AI Roofing Revolution gives your team the training to implement AI so you stay ahead, not scramble to catch up. Don't wait until you're losing. Get trained now at the link in the description or the sponsors page of the Roofing Success Podcast website. How do you develop a good training program for the installation side for your project managers and installers?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a great question. We're really proud of creating that. What we found is typically I would take people that are on the cruise and then I would bring them into the project management side of things. But that was not sustainable on a huge growth process. Like you're not going to find as many people as you're looking for. Um, and so we had to create a course because we didn't want to just talk really nice to the customer because you can give them white glove service all day long. But if they have a roof leak, none of that applies at that point. So for me, it's a course on how does the process work? How are we efficient? How do we get all the inspections through? How do we work together with our office staff so that we can, you know, inspect the roofs the same day as we complete them? But how do we support the guys and girls that are putting the roofs on? Like, how do we continue what I had originally started as a project manager myself, you know, surrounding that team that's in the court, that's producing, that's playing the game? Like, how do we do that? And so for me, we teach that in project management. And how do you support these guys? Which means sometimes once a week, you're gonna stop and grab them all lunch. You're gonna get them Gatorades for the job site. You're going to be there to help them. And what I mean by that is like if you have to deliver a bundle of shingles, you put it on your back and you carry it up the ladder for them. You don't just push it off the truck. Like, create that atmosphere, that culture of I'm here to help, because they're not used to that. And that really drives the culture as far as a project manager being a part of that. So the other issue is you can't tell people what to do or how to help on the roof install if you don't have the knowledge yourself and they're not gonna respect you. So we built platforms of chimneys and all kinds of different angles that you're gonna run into on a house, like vents, and we teach the project managers how we want that installed here at Eustace. And then they can transfer that out into the field. I can't tell you how many times we had new installers come and then we train the installers and they said, I've been roofing for 20 years, no one's ever showed me how to install a roof. And so that's shocking to me. And I want our process to be different and unique, and I want to drive that into the installer that we are unique, we are different, we want to be quality. And so the project manager plays a big part in that. And so we're not only training them how to talk to the customer, which, you know, honestly are pretty common sense. Like first thing in the morning, you roll up, you talk to the homeowner. When you come back in the afternoon or in the middle of the day, you talk to the homeowner. Anytime you're checking on the crew, you need to check on the homeowner. And then the third time at the end of the day, check on the homeowner. So, you know, what we're seeing in in a lot of big roofing companies is they do a really good job talking to the homeowner. They have zero knowledge for the roof, and then the roof fails, and nobody's happy at that point. And so I want to be really good at installing roofs, not just talking to customers. And so we make that a big part of uh of our class and why we do what we do and some flashing details that we do and why it's unique, and how this is the standard for every job. And you get less callbacks. And I think at the end of the day, too, when your sales team sees you doing this and they see you responding and taking care of any bad reviews that they believe in what they're selling, and then your KPI goes up. That's why I say a lot of times KPIs can be misleading, is because if your team doesn't believe in your project managers and your install, you're gonna have bad KPIs. And so if we do a really good job with the project managers and making sure the roof's installed right, everybody wins at the end of the day. And that's honestly what the customer's paying for is a good install and and holding their hand along the process and and meeting their concerns and what they need.

SPEAKER_05:

I believe that your sales keep KPIs even get affected by that, right? Like the close rates of your salespeople will be affected if they don't feel like you have a good installation process. Yeah. Because who's gonna get the call, right? Like if they get if they continue, if they get calls from homeowners that are like, hey, you guys suck, they you you're gonna see some conversion rates go down, right? Um, it it's a crazy thing, but but that that's such such an important thing and holding people to high standards. Another metric that I wanted to go into you with was you guys opened the uh started the call center. The average roofing contractor is going to have someone answering the phones, the owner, the office manager, someone in, you know, someone's gonna be answering the phones. When you're looking from a like, what are you looking for from an appointment set rate? What are you looking at from, you know, like what are those metrics that you're looking at that the the average roofing contractor can put into their day-to-day to say, man, we're doing the right thing on that, also.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I I want to say off the top of my head, I think we're looking at a set rate above 50%. So that means every call comes in. Can we set the appointment? Um, one of the things that is unique and and is different, and I felt like I don't like this, but it actually ended up working, is where you can get both uh homeowners in the home. That's a key that we found worked really well to actually closing the deal. So we will reschedule too. So if a salesperson shows up to the house and it's just a husband, hey, let me reschedule so I can talk to both of you and I'll come back Saturday. Tell me what works the best for you. And so that's an area that we've done really well. And I was not sure about that at the beginning, and it's worked really well. Cancellations, we we measure how many cancellations we get for the sales appointments or our customer calls back. Um, we measure how long you're on the phone, we measure where the lead came from. Um, there is a ton of metrics from the sales perspective on the uh call center, um, and how they contribute to to getting that to the salesperson. Um, and then we actually opened our hours where we're open a lot longer, we're open weekends where we can take those calls. And that's been a huge uh gameplay for us, uh, change. And then honestly, how do we create where if we get hit by a hurricane, we have power, electric, everything like that, so that we can be the only roofing company that's actually taking the calls. Um we did a really good job building that call center out so they can take the calls for all of the state of Florida. So all our our other partners are able to get appointments set it from this call center right here, centrally located.

SPEAKER_05:

That's awesome. And so those are good things to be able to measure, like at least just as starting points, right? Like I think a lot of people when they're thinking about their marketing efforts and things like that, they don't know they don't have a good benchmark to start with, right? And the the that appointment set rate says something about the the the person calling, the lead that's coming in, maybe the quality of lead that's coming in. It also says something about the script that you're using in your appointment set, right? And then the that tees up the appointment for the salesperson and how much you know how well they're set up in it from an expectations perspective when they get out there to do the inspection. And that like you can really measure some really cool things and just from a basic level, just have a like, okay, this is at least we should be around here, right? And now we have a starting point and and and where are we? Something to measure. Um, you know, we talked about this before and it's come up a couple of times, like you know, from our experience, go, you know, with with uh with our job nimbus acquisition and and you with vertex man, go into private equity, there's a whole lot of numbers that they love, right? They love numbers, private equity, big companies, they love metrics, they love numbers. You you mentioned a couple of things, like the you know, the the the two the all decision makers in the home or you know, not running one-leggers is the you know, whatever. Um, you know, the what are some other metrics that were that that started getting put into play during this process of being, you know, now your private equity. We want you to measure this, we want you to we want you to be looking at that. What are some of the other ones that you're like, I never thought of that? That was a good one. Like man, that what you know, wow.

SPEAKER_02:

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SPEAKER_05:

What are some of the other ones that you're like, I never thought of that? That was a good one. Like man, that what yo, wow.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so I was so green to the sales side. I was just so involved in the install. Like a lot of good roofers are they don't realize they're losing a ton from the front end. So um one of them is demo. Like when you go to the house, like how many percentage of people are actually there to buy a roof or just get a price? So if you demo, then we're gonna measure that demo to close. What's your close rate from demo? What's your close rate from the initial call? So those are two totally different things to measure. Um, another thing that we measure a lot, and there's a there's a a lot of people that disagree or agree with this, is the NSLI. Um, what is the NSLI and is our marketing dollars working to for the sale? Um, which again, like that can be misleading too, because if you're selling a ton of repairs, then your NSLI is gonna be off. So you have to start to separate your repairs and try to learn from those KPIs and where they're getting affected from. Um but a big one is you know, demo, how many times do you demo versus the uh set rate? And then how many, how what's the percentage of the close rate? And so we can now hold the sales team accountable for every call that they go to, starting from the contact center or the call center. Uh, and again, like I don't think roofers really understand how important the training is for the person taking the call and how important the script is so that they understand what you're doing. And and then roofing knowledge, like, you know, like there's so many opportunities we would have lost in the past. And I can tell you, like, you would get somebody from the the call center that says, um, we don't do concrete roofs, like, well, we're cut, you know, you can have tile that's concrete, and so we lost those leads. And so we had to really take some time and train for that position, um, and then create some enthusiasm around getting the appointment set. Like, how do we get that appointment set right there? Everybody is involved in making sure that our marketing dollars gets us to the customer, and it's it's not always just for a sale. For me, I always run that same analogy for me, which is how do we save homeowners from bad roofers? And in our industry, there's a ton of bad roofers that it just happens to be that way. And so for me, if I can get in front of them, I feel like I'm saving them. So it's not just about a sale, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

It's a it it is, and and that mindset, that's a mindset, right? There's a and that's a sales mindset that if you can instill that in your team, that you are like you have to go with us. There becomes a confidence in the sale, like there's a confidence, it's a different conversation, there's a different tonality from that salesperson. It's like, no, we we are not this other company. We the they are not like us, right? Like this is this is not the same, even though it says, you know, GAF, you know, Timberline, H D, right? Like it in this line item, we're not the same. Like, this is not the same experience. This is not the same, you know, company. Now you're not going to get them all, right? The close rates are not 100. We don't shoot for close rates of 100. Some people are not your customer. Just saying that out loud, who is not your customer at Eustace Roofing?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So going back to the old school way of thinking, for me, it's like everybody's my customer. But when we measure things, we start to realize that we're running these leads and we're losing a ton of money and it doesn't make sense. So for us, like um, let's just say a good example aluminum car ports or aluminum roofs. When we start asking the the right questions from the call center, we can go, okay, this isn't our customer, this is somebody else, and here's who we recommend. Where if if it would have been the old days, I would have ran that lead because maybe there's an attachment to that roof that has shingles on it. And we can't just turn away. We want, I want to get on everybody's roof that I can get on. Um, but what we found is by the time you pay all the expenses to get them there, it's super expensive, right? Like you can lose up to 100 grand a week running leads that aren't your customer. And then not only that, you're you're hurting the KPIs of the salesperson that's running it, which is hurting their self-esteem or their, you know, the way that they approach it, which is hurting their paycheck. And so sometimes you have to draw the line of what actually is your customer. For us, we're typically looking for the customer that really is looking for the quality, the install being a quality install, the 15-year relationship. That's who we're looking for. Um, and I hate to say this, but if you're looking for the cheapest roofer, we're probably not the person for you because we're gonna use uh quality, you know, products. Just like everybody says, we're actually going to do that. And so um, you know, we have great financing for people that aren't in that area yet. Like we can finance roofs, and uh equity has brought really good financing. That's one of the biggest things I've seen and a smart way to do that. So if you can't afford it, we can finance it to make sense. Um, and we can get, you know, there's stuff out there that that helps homeowners that are in need, we can approach that. And um, so I think like you you have to be super careful trying to get on every roof because it if you start to measure it, it's very, very expensive. And what does it actually cost you to land at the homeowner's house? You know, and I think it'd surprise people by the time you pay the workers' comp, the insurance, the liability, everything that gets involved, it's a massive amount of money to get to every customer's house. And so if you're doing those and you're just throwing them away, it really starts to add up. And so we want the call center to go through that call to really understand the homeowner, what they're looking for, and what their roof is, what type it is, so that we can we can eliminate that if they're not our customer from the call center, so that we're not wasting the time of the salesperson.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that's awesome. There's so much there's so much slipping through the cracks that you don't we you just don't even think about it. And and I I'm I'm sure that I've been a hundred percent you know uh guilty of letting things slip through the cracks over the years in all of my businesses based on the feeling that this is the right thing to do, right? Like, uh we'll go out there, we'll look at that carport, it's fine, right? We'll look at it, we we might get a deal out of it. We've uh you could tell yourself a story. Well, we got the the the the Smith House that one time, three, six years ago, like we can, you know, it happens, it happens every now and then. When you get into the data and you start measuring things, that data actually tells a story. But like you'd mentioned a couple times too, the data can lie too, right? Like uh that old saying that uh you know people lie, numbers don't, is not true. Like you, you know, numbers can lie also. It's it's the the best, it's it's the the the the question that's being asked for the numbers to show is what really really comes down to it. And you have to understand the the the other things that are touching that those numbers. That salesperson's close rate could be an effect of that, right? Like of setting that that that that uh that uh that appointment for that carport, right? Like there's so many things that you go, oh well they're their close rate's down. Well, yeah, but you sent them on these on these bad appointments, right? Like so we all we we have to that macro view of things. I heard Dave Ramsey talk about that with Alex uh Hormozy on an interview uh where uh uh Dave Dave Ramsey talked about how he, you know, as an entrepreneur, like I just run through walls. Like if I'm in a maze, if the if business is a maze and I need and I can't find my way around, I'm going through or over. Like I'm just going. Where he he started hiring these, you know, high-level business executives, MBAs, and things like that into his business. And they would they they have a dip they'd step back and they look down at the maze. They go, no, no, Dave, take a right. No, no, take all right, take a left. We should take a left here. And so the what was really cool about that interview, he talked about how he had to teach the MBAs the scrappiness, right? The the the that they were looking too far away sometimes. They were they were they were too far away from the problem, and they taught him how to how to get far enough away from the problem to actually you know get a good viewpoint of it. Uh you know, you've now been creating content for years now. Now you got a show with Dimitri. Yeah. How what how did that come about? What's the what's the premise of the show? How do people find that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um, Dimitri does a a show every Tuesday, and so I'll jump on with him every now and then. It's super interesting because it's homeowners that either had a bad experience, homeowners that had a bad experience with like their insurance company. And then on the other side of it, he'll interview contractors that had bad homeowners. And what's amazing is how many times that contractors actually won in court cases uh because they had all the right documents to prove that they were trying to do the right thing. Because not only are there bad contractors out there, but there's bad homeowners. And so what I like about it is he's done both on his show, and it kind of inspired me to stand up to bad homeowners when we have those and like you know, um bad actors in the industry too. So um we've seen a ton on the show of insurance companies that tried to push claims away, and it really cost them a lot in the end and not taking care of their homeowners. So stuff like that, or um homeowners that legit didn't get good service from a roofing contractor and have questions, and we can kind of walk through that as professionals in that industry and solve those problems because if you look on like Angie's list or anything else out there, like the number one or two complaint is always roofing contractors, and so kind of tapping into that and helping homeowners that maybe had a bad experience on like uh as far as professional, here's how we would do that. Um, and so kind of both sides of the aisle, and and I think it's really, really interesting, and I and I like being a part of it.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, the i I I love the frame of framing of that because it's not always the contractor, right? And and it, you know, it's not always the homeowner, but it but there are times where it can be, you know. Yes. Um, you know, would you in a lot of these stories that you guys have covered, what has been like the biggest lesson that you've taken away from all these stories that you've covered, the homeowners, the terrible homeowners, or the terrible contractors. What are some of the lessons that you've taken from that?

SPEAKER_00:

I think the number one lesson that I've learned, which is I was saying a minute ago, is documentation, like tracking and documenting everything you do, because that proves the story or helps in in the court case. And not only like for the customer, it helps too. Like if they're documenting everything and then they can bring that to court, you have a much better chance of proving your story. And that's the thing that I've learned on there. And and even for a contractor, if you're continuously trying to make that homeowner happy and you're documenting it and you're going out there, you're gonna do really well in court because honestly, there's not a ton of contractors that are like that, and you're gonna start to see through that homeowner that is maybe just a difficult homeowner and just not gonna be happy. So documenting everything is really a big one for me, um, and always doing the right thing, like never trying to cover something up. That's what we see a lot, like in the industry or insurance side of things, where they like send emails back and forth to each other that are discovered later on where they're not doing the right thing. I promise you, overall, in the end, it's much cheaper to do the right thing. It's always cheaper to do the right thing. And and and honestly, like that's probably a huge thing that I would tell people. Um, if you messed up, don't try to hide it. Yeah, it just makes it worse. Fix it. And so that's something that I've seen on these.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, one of the I I did a lot of or a fair amount of fix and flips post-crash, and uh had a real estate attorney and and got into a mediation with a general contractor that I hired. I was or kind of they they were doing most of the work, but um themselves. But uh and he was like after I talked to him about it, we're like, um yeah, I got this conflict with this contractor, and he's like, you know why they call them contractors? Because they work on contracts, so make sure that your contracts are well defined, make sure that the expectations are well defined in your contracts, and then document that you've done the things correctly or incorrectly, right? Like and and and so pictures is you know, how do you feel about that? Or are you guys do you guys really document your jobs well with with with photographs, videos? How do you guys do that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a great question. Here in Florida, like you don't have a choice, like you have to. So, like I would say typically every job, we have 200 pictures of it. Like I that's one thing that I found unique when we're with private equities looking into other companies that are maybe in Georgia or uh in the north, like where they're not going through these inspections, they don't have to go through all these hoops, and it's a much different. So, like they're gonna send you ideas or things that work really well, and they might not apply. So, for us, like yes, every part of the process we have to take a picture of or call an inspection in on site. Um, you know, they can come at the beginning, middle, and end of the job, and so you have to post those pictures there. I mean, it is insane. So we don't have any problem documenting jobs. We've been uh doing that for for a long time. So, but I do say, like, pictures, video, all of that stuff is huge.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, the that mediation that I showed up to, like that we're trying to solve it. I showed up with like 350 pictures, and the the attorney that was doing the mediation walked in, and uh, like I was like, All right, here you go. And he was just he chopped.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

It was like it was the the the person the the contractor that I was dealing with, he had just come out of a room with them and they just had anecdotal stories. And I had pictures of all of the things, you know, details of every single thing, pictures that went with everything that I you know thought was was incorrect on that job. And um yeah, documentation, document, um, and and set proper expectations. Yeah, I think that that's and that's a big gap too, is if if someone thinks that it's this way, but it's really this way, and there's that gap there, that's that that that will always lead to to an issue. So uh having a well-trained team like you're like you've been talking about and doing that uh leads to a lot a lot of uh uh less headaches over the years, right? And do the right thing. It's amazing. It's amazing when you do the right thing. Um where do you see the future, Jason? What what's going on in the industry? How can a uh a roofing contractors you know survive and thrive over the coming years?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, for me where I see the future, one of the biggest benefits here right now is you know, seeing roofing change a lot. And we started that process, but equity has really sped it fast or sped it up, which is you know, we have all the people that work here have access to healthcare where we didn't have that in our industry before. So affordable healthcare now at roofing companies, like that's amazing. We have 401 uh plans, 401k plans and retirement plans. You can move up here and be a regional person. I lost a lot of my team to the regional side of things, and so we were able to um replace those people with really good talent. That's one of the things that equity brings, is it's really they're really good at finding talent. And as a matter of fact, you said something earlier about Alex Ramosy and how um he wanted to run through walls. And I think contractors in the roof industry need to get smarter about this because I wasn't, which is like uh with with Vertex, they go out and they find previous military guys and girls that are really smart and they plug them in. And like you said, they're not they're they're they can be more um directional and like understand the KPIs and where they're really smart people, but sometimes they need that person like Alex, you know, there's a good combination there, yeah. And so we found that to work really well, but I think um the industry is definitely sped up really fast, and you're gonna see more and more of that Amazon experience, you know, like for the customer, like it's a reality now, it's happening really fast. Um, I can see that with us. Uh, and and honestly, the experience getting much better for the customer. And if you look at like for me, I used to to say that we were six to eight months out when you sign a contract, and that's not a great experience for any homeowner. And we thought like that was a great thing in the past, and now that we realize it wasn't a great thing, it was security for me, uh, not for the homeowner. And so now we're seeing, hey, you can you can sign a contract and you can have your roof installed in a week. And so very uncomfortable because the speed that we move as far as like the quality is still there, but we're able to channel that through a lot faster. And I think the homeowner really likes that instead of waiting six months or giving your competition an opportunity to take that job from you. So your translation rate goes down. If you're gonna spend the amount of money that you have to spend now on marketing, you're gonna want to put that roof on a lot quicker because you don't want to lose it to your competition because it costs you a lot to get to that doorstep. So I see roofing changing a lot in those areas, becoming more and more professional for sure. And hopefully that translates to the homeowner and getting a better roof. And that's our goal here.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, awesome, man. Thanks for your time today. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast.

SPEAKER_03:

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Jim Ahlin

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