Roofing Success
The Roofing Success Podcast is a show created to inspire roofing contractors to achieve optimal success in their roofing businesses. The host, Jim Ahlin, is the co-author of the book, "Internet Marketing For Roofing Contractors, How to TRIPLE Your Sales and Turn Your Roofing Website Into an Online Lead Generation Machine", and Co-Founder of Roofer Marketers, the Digital Marketing Agency for the roofing industry. On each episode, Jim will be sitting down with industry leaders to talk about their processes, the lessons they learned, and how to find success in roofing.
Roofing Success
Roofing's Harsh Reality: The Gold Rush is Gone—Will Your Business Make It? Jon Broce
The roofing industry's gold rush is OVER. The easy wins are gone. Now, with new regulations, private equity takeovers, and retail shifts, it's a race to survive.
In this video, we dive deep with Jon Broce—COO of Vertex's Florida region, Co-Founder of UglyRoof.com, and COO of MHI Roofing—to explore how to navigate these harsh new realities. From servant leadership to adapting operations and finding your niche, Jon shares valuable insights on what it takes to thrive in a market that has changed forever.
Learn how the roofing landscape is shifting and why specialization, smart leadership, and strategic growth are your keys to survival. Are you ready to face the challenge head-on, or will your business get left behind?
🔑 The Gold Rush is over—so what's next for you? Watch now to get the answers.
If you're ready to adapt, lead, and thrive in this new era, join us in the trenches of the Roofing & Solar Reform Alliance. Get the support, training, and tools you need to outsell, outgrow, and outcompete the rest.
Let's STOMP the scum out and build a better future—together!
🔗 https://mhiroof.com
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Imagine navigating the roofing industry during one of the toughest marketing years ever, adapting to shifting regulations and managing a team through a series of high stakes acquisitions, all while embracing a servant leadership philosophy. Today's guest, john Brose, has not only done that, but has thrived by finding the balance between grit and growth. In this episode, we dive into how John transitioned from an owner-operator mindset to his current role as COO of Vertex's Florida region, leading one of the most innovative teams in the roofing industry. We'll unpack his journey of consolidating top-tier roofing brands, building an all-star team and redefining leadership in a constantly evolving market.
Speaker 1:John isn't about building businesses. He's also about building people. Whether it's coaching teams to lead effectively or crafting processes that elevate operations, his passion for sustainable growth and servant leadership is inspiring. Get ready to learn how to lead with impact, create scalable systems and prepare for the future of roofing. This is a masterclass in balancing strategy with empathy. Let's dive in with John Brose on the Roofing Success Podcast. Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. The nicest guy in roofing, john Brose Yep.
Speaker 2:The nicest guy that used to be at Roofing right.
Speaker 1:That's right, and one of the smartest guys in roofing. So if anyone doesn't know John, my goodness, get to know him, because you need to, you need to. How's it going with MHI Roofing?
Speaker 2:Man, it's good Been through a lot of fun changes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, growth, and we're in the middle of the grind to growth mentality, right? So that's the best way to describe it. You used to grind and now we're just learning how to grow.
Speaker 1:When does the grind stop?
Speaker 2:So I don't think it ever stops. I think it's like you just grind in a different way and you call it growth. But but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, that's a, that's a thing I mean. You guys have had an exceptional run, you know, you know, over the years, building into multiple locations and then being acquired by Vertex, and, and then let's describe where, like what you do now on a day to day basis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my role is COO of the Florida region. So, operationally, like I'm more of a linebacker right now, right, so it's like I get to go into the operations, help find inefficiencies, try to figure out a way to like help them, you know, iron those out as fast as possible, getting the teams ready for service-tightened integrations, trying to get job duties and things to line up with what's coming. Just little things and then just really trying to live out the servant leadership role, right. So, just, you know, just being there to be helpful, a lot of transition stuff that you know that you don't expect, that you know I've, I've been through now that I can help, coach through and talk through, and you know little things. Whether it's the guy that's out there in the field that don't understand like what's the next steps to the owners, you know that that just sold their company. So like I get to, really, you know I get to help and try to enrich their lives now. So it's fun, you know, yeah, it's a good time, and it's.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a whole. I mean you guys are I don't know if I the way to put it but Vertex is playing in a whole different, playing a different game. I don't know if I, if that's the right way to put it, but but with the, the, the acquisitions or mergers that have happened, what are some of the notable mergers that have that have gone into Vertex now?
Speaker 2:So yeah, so as far as acquisitions, I mean, you got like Monarch Rufine, you got Yusha Sh Roofing, you've got Ushish Roofing, you've got Victor's King Quality. Like we've got a lot of high-end guys that are just you know, that were already up here with ethics and integrity and the way that they do business. You know, I mean there's a lot of good players that I'd say on our team here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something unique that I've seen from from Vertex versus some of the other private equity firms. They really have a. Uh, they're really looking for the, the to build the dream team. It might sound like right, they're trying to really build the all-star team, the, the, not that other other private equity groups are not buying good companies, but it seems like Vertex is buying the brands in the market, like looking for the best known, the real high quality operators and companies in each market.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I would agree with that. I mean and it is a mindset is is is a little different, right? So, like the goal is to is to consolidate what you can consolidate, put everybody into the same thing. But when you sit down at some of the round table, you know, I sit, I sit down with Martin Pettigrew and Victor and I sit down with Jeff Brett and Jason Reisman, and like, when you sit at the table with some of these guys and you have some of the best brains in the industry, like we come up with some pretty awesome and crazy ideas that you just like, you're like man, like why didn't we ever think of this?
Speaker 2:And then you take the best of the best and then you put them into this category and now it's like John, now take the best of the best along these brands that you have and you manage and take these best practices to each spot and like and figure out, like you know, what does this change management look like, what does this transition look like? Because it's all good change, but it's still, you know, it's still got to go in with with the right servant attitude, and you know, and just make sure that you're helping them get to the right spot.
Speaker 1:And I can see that, like, the melding of minds is awesome, but there's also probably a balancing of I mean, those are very successful people all in one room, yeah, sometimes maybe having conflicting ideas yeah, I don't know how you know, but but I guess a shared mission is probably what brings people together right, like I would. I would assume that that that's a that's the case. What are some of the you'd mentioned that you know? A lot of the stuff that you've been doing is working on you know, like digging into operations, inefficiencies and things like that. What have you learned from looking at it at this level now, what are some of the things that someone going from you know two to five or five to ten, or you know even ten to fifteen or something like that? What are some of the things that they can look at, that, things that they're, that they're not maybe not seeing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's a great question. It's, it's one of those things that you don't know, what you don't know until you don't know it Right. So you know, I mean it's. You know, you feel really good when you're building a business and you feel like that you've got a lot of it figured out. And I know that sounds like egotistical, but, like you know, you know what's working and what's going on. But those same things don't work in everybody's business.
Speaker 2:Adjust and adapt and overcome, right, and make sure that the same theology or the same mentality, the same mission gets, gets imprinted into this other brand is like like that's the art, right, so that's the art, the art of it, so it makes it fun too. It's kind of like what you said. It's kind of like you know, back in my coaching days, you know, when you have an all-star basketball team, it's like you know, like in my coaching days, you know we didn't have an all-star basketball team. It's like you know, like you go through the little bit of a draft and you're like, okay, I want these three kids, these three kids, and you wind up with a 12 to 15-man team and you're like I got to start everybody. It's like how do you not start everybody right? So everybody has so many strengths. And then you got to learn, learn like. You got to learn the playbook of like, where everybody strengths that, and to make sure that you're covering blind, blind spots.
Speaker 2:So it's real difficult to kind of manage an all star team, you know. I mean. I mean it sounds, it sounds like it'd be easy, but it's actually it's more. It's more challenging because you got new personalities, you got new ways of doing things. You got guys that have done things for you know, 35 years a certain way and you're like, hey, have you ever thought about it this way? So it's more challenging in a good way, to like, you know, to see how that you can make light bulbs go off Like you know it used to. It's always been fun, but it used to be like, hey, when I was owner operator, you know you would still have this influence, but a lot of times you have the influence because you got to write the paycheck and I know it sounds, you know, not great, but it is great. But now you're talking to guys that are on your level and you're trying to help have that influence as well. So it's a new it's it's a new way to operate.
Speaker 1:And it's not actually. It's really fun because you get there and you get to know them and how they do things. You mentioned that, some things, and I think everyone thinks that maybe there's one way right, and a lot of times, maybe in the guru space, right, it's like this is the way right, this is the only way. So it gets sold that it's that there's one way to do it. But in in, in my experience, man, there's a lot of successful people doing a lot of different things in their businesses, right, and, and what are some of the reasons now that you're getting to see this like man, this is working over at this, in this, in this company, but it didn't work here, or what? Why? Why do you think it is Like? Why do you think that one company crushes it doing some strategy or tactic and then another company tries it and it just falls flat? What do you? Why do you think that happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll preface it with this right? So if we're, if we're running a play and we we want to get to the number 10, right, Five plus five is 10,. Five times two is 10,. You know, 20 minus 10 is 10, right.
Speaker 2:So, like, there's multiple ways to get to the same spot and so being able to have have the position to where that you can see all people around the table, even though that we're trying to get to the same spot, sometimes it has to be a different path and those paths are usually because of culture. Not that it's a bad culture, it's never a bad culture, it's just the way that you bring it to your people. Right, it can also be a strength issue, Like you know, like they're really strong in marketing, but not that, but not that strong in in, in production, or vice versa. So it's like, you know, it's like things that we think are simple of, like, hey, you just turn up your LSA and now you have these hundreds of thousands of leads. Right, you know.
Speaker 2:But, but for some people there's more of a challenge because they don't have the speed to lead programs. The other thing, so like it's just, it's a cultural mindset, right. So like now that you have these brands that you bring in. You have guardrails that you got to put into place and you can make them a little bit narrow as you go, but you got to have guardrails, yeah we're not subtracting, we're only adding.
Speaker 2:We're only going to do we're only adding.
Speaker 1:It's either one plus nine or two plus seven. We're still going in the same direction.
Speaker 2:It's still a one-way street. I'm still on this side of the highway, but I now put up different guardrails to kind of keep them, or we try to do that, to try to just keep everybody focused on the same thing, right? So if we're trying to get to the number 10 and you're really good at two and eight, let's do two with two plus eight. But this other kind of the company might, might, be good at three plus seven. So it's OK to get there, as long as we're getting there, because it's just based on different strengths and weaknesses. And, you know, as long, as long as we understand that weaknesses are not a bad thing, it's just how do you, you know, how do you navigate around them. So I think that's the main thing.
Speaker 1:I love that analogy because and then I think of that from an ownership or leadership level in a company is that your team may have a different way to get there than you have to get there From a managerial standpoint. How would you like? We're talking about kind of more of a you know on a very high leadership level what you're dealing with, but how do you do it? How do you what? What would be a way to to kind of do that for your team also? Do that for your team also, because I think this same analogy can go all the way down to the job site supervisors, all the way out to the canvasser, any way you go. I think that this same analogy applies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it really gets into leadership training Right.
Speaker 2:So you know learning that I lead up and down and sideways. Right. So you lead like you have to be centric, like everybody around around you you lead to whether it's, you know, I mean a leader leads Right, whether you're leading the person that's the same rank as you or higher or lower, like. So to do that like it's it's actually man I, I have a good, a good coach. It's got me here over the last three years. It's Jeff Voller. I don't know if you guys know him, but good dude. So he's been a great coach.
Speaker 2:But one of the things that he taught me was I can't do it for you. Right, I have to lead you to there by asking the right questions, even though I have my own idea of what I want you to do and I have my own mission of where I need you to go. Sometimes I have to figure out what is the equation, and sometimes the equation to get there is just by asking a couple of things. You know one is always like you know one is. I don't think that there's anything such as a problem, like there are no problems, there's only unsolved opportunities. And so when somebody comes to you with these unsolved opportunities, it's like well, what have you tried? Right? And then the next question I'm going to ask is what do you think that we should do Right? And then you empower them, and in their leadership role, to make a decision and say, well, I think that we should do X, x and X. Well, let's say that it's not a great idea, right, I mean it happens, right, you know, like I've been down this path, I don't want to go. Well, no, you got to do do it this way, because a lot of times they wind up leaning on you to make all decisions. So now it's more like okay, well, listen, so if we do that, how have you thought about this? So if we go down this path? So here's some things that we might see what's your idea on how to overcome those?
Speaker 2:It's question-based. You just go through this whole question thing and anytime that you speak as a leader like this is really, it's close to my heart, is it true, is it? And is it helpful? If it's not, all three don't say a word. Right, listen more until you can come up with something that's true, kind and helpful.
Speaker 2:Um, so, even whenever I'm mad or something crazy just happens. Um, you know, something hits you like you know I've told this guy 30 times like how to do this right. I have to look at myself and do this Right. I had to look at myself and say, well, I should have only had to tell him once what did I do? That I'm not conveying this message the right way. So when you get to that extreme ownership part of like how do I respond in a true, kind, helpful way? It kind of slows you down to where that you help your team make really good decisions because you want to know their opinion, because they're in the middle of the fight, like they're in the trenches, in in the battle, and you're sitting in in a spot. Hopefully that you can see it from a new perspective.
Speaker 1:So that's the thing and in a in a, that leadership aspect is it's how to get to the next levels, right, like that's what unlocks the next levels in your business. In my opinion, right, it's the people that unlock the next levels. So your ability to lead those people is really what unlocks that next level. I love that. True, kind and helpful. That's awesome. Coaching the team that's awesome. Coaching the team. You know how much in a good way, or that you know, like this is the way I manage. So this is what it is, you know. But I think that, man, there's there's completely other levels to this, right, and I, I read a. I read a. I remember reading in a book one time it was about CEOs and it's like the best CEOs ask the best questions. Yep, like they just ask questions. They don't, they don't even. They very, very rarely say a statement, even. Right, how do you get to that level? Where does that, what's that path look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So from a, from a, it's a's a, it's a good question. So, from a leadership standpoint, the number one thing is is the? If the only value that I bring to you is your paycheck, then I'm failing 100 percent. So that's the first way that you got to examine yourself, right? So, and you know and this came from another guy that I learned a lot from too but, like, money will never be a problem for an employee, right, it should never be a problem. Right, Because if you place yourself under a good leader that you want to emulate, that's the first step to everything. So, like me personally, like I want to make sure that, like when I'm selling my, my company, that I want my team to be up under the same leadership structure that I would approve of. So, like that was a do the do I mean for us, like really diving in deep to making sure that that we really were involved with a servant leadership mentality, right? So if you, if you think about being a contractor of choice, you got to be the employer of choice and you got to have you know that. You got to have, you know that servant leadership, which is a true statement.
Speaker 2:Um, the next thing is, you got to be proud of the great name you work for, you know. I mean, if you know, I'll throw some biblical stuff over. There is proverbs 22 1 like. You had to be proud of the name you work under, right, because if not, like, then then you're not getting value to your people. You've got to find the nature of work, to leverage your unique gifts. So that goes back to the 1 plus 9 equals 10, right? So your gifts might be number 3 and his gifts are 7. You put them together and you get to 10. So you've got to make sure that you leverage that.
Speaker 2:And then are you passionate about what you're doing, right? So is your battery charged at work to be a better, a better husband, a better father, a better? You know everything in life. So do you go home energized, or do your people go home? You know they're defeated, and so those are the things that I focus on from my leadership stance.
Speaker 2:How do I get to those points, to where that's the value that I can put into people is that they want to be within the fold of our leadership. So, as I looked up into listen, we're going to go through an acquisition. Is this a team that I wanted to align with that's going to keep those values down and that's it. Man, like those, I mean I don't know where to go with from there with it, but yeah, what are the things that we're happy to sacrifice to be there, right? So, like it sounds crazy, but, like you know, it's like you have to be passionate about what you're doing and who you work for, or it just doesn't matter the money. So, you know, I want to bring different type of value and rich people's lives and I believe that we've aligned with the right PE firm and that's usually not the terminology that people get as PE firms and passionate about people, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a little that doesn't sound right in the universe when you put that out there, but it is. But it is true, like, if you find the right if, if there is the right intention and everything, and yeah, and, and I think that maybe that's it, maybe it's it's you, you have to find your intention Right, and if your intention is money, you're probably going to have a challenge becoming a good leader. Yep, if, I'm sorry, if your attention is, if your intention is the money in your bank account, right, like, if, if your intention is the money in others' bank accounts, that's that leadership, right. And so I think something that for people to think about now too is, you know, I mean going at scale, like into a very large corporation.
Speaker 1:Now, what you guys have I heard a quote or a statement here is do you really want to be a CEO? Right, like, do you really want to be a COO? Do you really want to be a CMO? Do you want to, like, like, understand the duties of before you put that, that, that title, next to your name, right, and make sure that you are that, that now, you, if you are the CEO of your roofing company, or the COO of your roofing company or the president of your roofing company know what that entails and what that really is, or are you better off in another seat? As these companies have transitioned together, have some people gone to different seats that were more appropriate for their skillset?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, so keep in mind you're building the bus and driving it at the same time, Right? So you know that's right. So there's gonna be injuries and sometimes there's better people at the bus stop to put people on the bus than what there are the people actually driving the bus, Right? So, like, you got to keep that in mind. It's like when you're the when you're the owner operator and you got to do it all.
Speaker 2:You feel like that you're the best at everything because you have to be the best at everything. But when you get into a group of all-stars, it's actually.
Speaker 2:It's refreshing to be able to focus on the things that one that you're passionate about and two that you can really like make a difference in right so like you can almost be not one dimensional, but you can also focus on one aspect and do it really really, really, really really good, like superior good, compared to focusing on 30 tasks and just be okay at all of them, right, so, yeah, so like that's the beauty it. So I don't think there's really a whole lot. It's a challenge sometimes for people to see that that's their best attribute. Um, so that's that's the real challenge.
Speaker 2:I would say, in all that is like you know, like if I'm coming to Jim and be like hey, listen, jim, like your best attribute is doing podcasts it's not really being a marketer, right? Like sometimes people don't see that that's their best aspect. But at the end of the day, it's like you got to help them see that through the right lines of questioning, right, and like, help them understand that you're really good at this. And, if you know, I would love if you were passionate about it as well, because if you're passionate and really good, now it's, you know it's it's to the moon. I mean, you can't stop that person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that. So that's an understanding of self Right, especially when you're the owner, because there's really no one to tell you. I think that's a challenge a lot of times. No one to tell you. I think that's a challenge A lot of times.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's like man, just you know you get out of your own way in some, in some cases, right, are you an operator? Are you a salesperson? Are you a sales manager? Are you, you know where, what? Find your strengths? I think that also I want to go down this road too, because now you guys have Frank's. I think that also I want to go down this road too, because now you guys have I mean, you have people to answer to. It's a different thing in entrepreneurship. It's different when you get someone, when you have to actually answer to someone, right, like that's a whole different. I have I've come up with a little theory, john, over the last year or so that as business owners we don't have, we don't really have that we say that we have the ownership and that we have the like that we're, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna run this marathon and we're, you know, we're all in, but we all have our days.
Speaker 2:We all have our days.
Speaker 1:We all have our days, you know we all have our years. Sometimes I've talked to it. You know a lot of contractors, man, they had a flat year, they had a down year, but they don't have that. They didn't have the same level of of they're. They're not going to get fired, right, right Like a CEO of a large corporation has a board of directors that, hey, if they don't hit their mark, if they're not executing on what they're supposed to be doing, they could get fired. How is it what? Now that you guys have that right, there's a different level of pressure. Maybe, I don't know, I don't want to call it pressure, but there's a different level of you have to answer to someone how, how can, how can that be replicated in some way for a smaller business?
Speaker 2:So I would say this is the number one thing that I've learned right that we always tried to do, but you always wound up kind of not doing it right Because you would. You know, as an owner operator it's like you would play in the gray, you know some, because you had to right, like like you know, like you'd put a guy on a truck that may or may not have had a good driver's license but you had to get the job done to make payroll, to pay the other 30 families. So you operated in the gray a lot more, but it was your money to risk. So you know, and it was worth the gamble because you had a lot of people that depended on you. So I would say the main thing is objective versus subjective Right, so gray versus black and white. So now it's actually a little easier to operate because I can operate in black and white. I operate on an objective standard with everything.
Speaker 2:Like the cool part about the way that we look at things at Vertex is there is a little bit of subjectivity left, right, compared to where a lot of PE firms don't allow some room for personal growth. But there is still some things there that you can measure subjectively, like, are they making an impact? Like, is there a servant leadership mentality? You know, sure, we're trying to figure out the right role because they're learning something new. But like, is their attitude staying good? Are they putting in the effort? Well, the performance is going to come right. So it's still what I've always done is attitude, effort and performance, and then it's the right person, wrong role. So, like you know, like, just make sure that you've got the right person on the bus.
Speaker 2:But I think the thing that has helped me do is learn that I can live under an objective standard and it's OK to look at numbers. You know, because, like people lie, numbers suck. I mean people lie, opinions suck, but numbers never do so. Like, that's the way you got to look at some things. So you got to look at it objectively and then say, okay, all right. So objectively, you know, you know, like I'll say this we had a sales rep that his father actually passed away as well, so his numbers crashed, right, but they both worked in the company. So it was very objectively. If I only look at it under an objective microscope, it's like cut the guy, he's not hitting it. But subjectively, you could still allow some grace in there, and that's really what servant leadership is all about. You know, yes, objectively I have a measure, but is the subjective measure really something that you can measure? That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it makes sense. And how do we do that for ourselves, though? Also, right Like, I guess we can give ourselves some grace at times. I like to say that with you know, in business ownership, a lot of times we don't give ourselves grace where you know, man, it may take longer to build this than it, than it should, yeah, you know. But then there's other times where, hey, we were going to, we were going to do this this quarter and it's not done. Yeah, and it's my fault that it's not done. You know that that's a whole nother aspect of it, I think. So it's my fault that it's not done. You know that's a whole other aspect of it, I think.
Speaker 2:So it's the same thing there. Right Is if you have an objective standard, so like me as an owner operator, right, because we still own Ugly Brief. Like, if we're not hitting our objective, I'm going to fire myself from that role and put somebody else there. It's the same thing. You still have to keep that objective standard. If I'm in the way, then I have to remove myself. I have to be smart enough to remove myself, right? Because if I stay in the way, then it's going to tank.
Speaker 2:So you still have to have an objective standard and if you're the person sitting in the way, it sucks to have to admit that.
Speaker 2:But there's been times where I'm like you know what, I'm in the way, and so I had a really good business partner and I still do. But like we were able to look at each other and be like hey, like I'm in the way, or you're in the way, let me run this play and you run this play and it worked out great, right? But if you don't have that person that you can bounce that off of, I would recommend getting a mentor, getting a coach, that that you can be open and honest with and they can tell you hey, you're in your way, like you're thinking about this the wrong way, because you're thinking about it in a prideful way or a monetary way instead of like how do I actually, you know, overcome this opportunity right, instead of, you know, just having the vantage point of it's a problem. So a lot of times we get in our own way and then our pride and our ego is in the way on top of being in the way Right.
Speaker 1:So it's OK to say I suck at accounting.
Speaker 2:I know enough about accounting that I can hire somebody. I know how to operate QuickBooks, but I know how to audit the controller. I went out and I mastered it, even though I hated it, because I wanted to be able to hire somebody that I knew how to audit Right. So it's okay to say I'm not good at this, I'm not good at, like, entering receipts in all day and doing the journal entries, but I need to know how to do it too at the same time.
Speaker 1:So so along the way we do learn a lot of things. When is it time to? Because sometimes you just can't give it up because you're not at a place where you can afford a good team member and things like that. How does one make that decision of what, who the next person is in their business to take off? Take away those things that are not their best strengths?
Speaker 2:Well, that's that grind to growth mentality, right. So we get stuck in the grind a lot of times and we don't delegate because one it's like well, I got to make money and I got to get there faster and I can do it myself. I can do it myself and do it myself. So you hire all these people who are just running tasks, right, who aren't really in independent leadership. So it has to almost be a full reset or it has to be from the very start as far as a mindset and a mentality Cause. A lot of times you get stuck as you're the leader but you're really the boss and you're just telling everybody what to do instead of leading them on how to do it. So you have to grow in a strategic way that you know like no limitations as you're growing, right. So if you know that you can't cover the spread on this, then don't bet on it, right.
Speaker 2:So like I, mean you know like that's the best way you do run the play. But you know, if you can't cover it, then don't hire that person until you have the time to actually train them. Like, don't hire I mean it sounds crazy. Stay small until you can, right, until you got something else that's automated, something else there.
Speaker 2:But you have to start with that mentality of like who's going to be my first hire, right? So I need to go ahead and get that department ironed out to where I can have all the SOPs written and I can lift it and shift it to somebody else and then I can train it. And then I go to the next thing how do I lift and shift? So if you can't lift and shift, like you're going to be in the in the doom spiral for the rest of your life and you'll never be able to do that. And what I say by SOP and lift and shift, like a lot of the issues, is we don't trust people. Again, I don't trust a lot of people, but I trust process, right, if I build a process and I know how to audit that process, I can trust the process and put people into it. Then you learn to trust the person because they are sticking to the process.
Speaker 1:I think about the metrics that get measured in the process too, and that's where I feel like the trust actually gets built is when the person is hitting the metrics that go along with the process. Right, you may have a great process. But if they're going outside of that process, if you don't see it, because if you're not involved in that task on a day-to-day basis, but you might be able to see something that that is related to to that, right, like the metric that is that that's that that's moving over here, and if they're, if they're not on now, you can see that someone is not following the process. Because if they were, the metrics would be right, or at least it gives you a clearer vision.
Speaker 1:I've seen a lot of people hire salespeople and just be like you know, now this person didn't work out, and I'm like well, what activities were you measuring? Well, sales, they didn't make a sale. And I'm like well, but were you measuring the activity that leads to a sale? Like, were you like where was where did it fall off? Right, Like what you know, like the. I think that that's a skill in itself is knowing what to measure. Yeah, to know what the leading indicators are of the success or failure of that position, and I know I mean what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's micro and macro, right. So you got to know, like, the process of what's going on in the micro and that and that's going to get you to your macro. So, leadership versus versus employee, like you know, you have to be able to coach and help them understand why the micro is important, right? Um, because the macro is the outcome. So the macro is like you're talking about now. Is I need you to sell a hundred thousand thousand dollars a month or whatever the kpi is? But the other kpis are how many doors did you knock? If you're in a door knocking thing, what is your issue to close, right? So, like, if I give you 10 leads, how many are you actually closing? Right, you know? How often are you know is is role play, you know? Are you actually role playing with them? Like, the worst person to allow to to role play with with your rep is the customer Cause, just cause, just because what you said with one it's not going to work with everybody else, right, but it's also on leadership side. So the one thing that I've learned is that, sure, we have a really rigid process and it's really good for you know, new people coming in and, like you can train things. But that's why it's also like when my, my leadership has come in and they're saying, hey, like I'm dealing with this issue. That's why it goes back to the two questions Well, what have you tried, right? And so I'm asking what have you done within the process? Have you actually followed the process? What's going on here and what do you think that we should do?
Speaker 2:Because a lot of times I don't want to be egotistical and arrogant too and say that you have to stick to only this process if it's not actually working anymore. Right, because there's things that happen. I mean, markets shift, right. So, like you know, I was saying I don't know what I don't know. So, like, we talked about strengths and weaknesses earlier, I thought I was really strong in marketing until I get to this level, and now it's like I know enough to be dangerous, right, like I mean, I still know quite a bit compared to some of the other peers, but like and that wasn't meant to be egotistical but like, like I still lack like 80% knowledge to be at a, at a at a different level. So it's one of those things like so the process is working, but we have this anomaly.
Speaker 2:So it's one of these things like, if you've got an SAP in a process, it should always be willing to change it if it becomes a majority issue. So you've got to be able to identify it. Is this an anomaly Like is this a one-off? So you've got a black swan? Identify it. Is this an anomaly Like is this a one-off right? So you've got a black swan, as Chris Voss calls it?
Speaker 2:Like, if I've got a black swan, then I'm not changing my process because it works 95% of the time and I've got this one person that doesn't like it. The process doesn't change because of that, right. But if you get to the point to where you have, you know, 50% of your customers are not happy because you're doing this one thing then absolutely sit down and talk about it and listen to your leadership that's out there in the field because, like, they know what's going on and if they follow the process and they follow your leadership and you've been, you know, true, kind and helpful the whole time like they're going to give you honest feedback as long as they feel like they can. And sometimes you have to change a part of the process and I hate to say that because I'm such a process driven guy. But but there's, I mean I've I've learned a lot last two years.
Speaker 2:On that it's like hey, like what I was doing a year ago is not working this year. Like we just went through some of the toughest marketing I've ever seen in an election year. I mean it was crazy, like, and and what I'll say is most operators I know are probably down 20, 30%. Everybody that I know within our family is up five to 40%. Like nobody went backwards, which was amazing. Right so, cause you don't know what you don't know. So, like, that's what I would say is like the process might change some, but know when to switch and why to switch and make sure that you're asking the right questions. Don't just be willy nilly changing it all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, so you, you, you framed it as building the bus as you're driving it. I, like you know, I always say like building the plane as you're flying it, like same thing, right. I always see I see two things happen A lot of times. I'll see people or company owners that go too hard on the gas pedal as they're building the bus right, the on the gas pedal as they're building the bus Right, and and they don't have enough. They don't have enough of the pieces in place to get to get this thing going, and that falls apart. But then I'll also see people that will park the bus in the garage and work on it forever and not get it out on the road and try to run in it Right, like, and.
Speaker 1:And you know how do you balance that on an ongoing basis? Because I think everything is an iteration. There's nothing that is set in stone. It's always iterating, constant iterating. You you'd mentioned, like, unsolved opportunities. That's all it is, man. There's always another unsolved opportunity, right, there's, there is never going to not be an unsolved opportunity, and so so. So what's the balance between get the, get the feet on the street and and and start selling this thing, versus we got to get this process right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm a gearhead. So I've I've built and drove race cars most of my life, except for the last 10 years. I've stayed out of them but, and I love to go to the dirt track. So historical data and knowledge will tell me that when I pull into this track, it's going to be dry, slick and I need to have this certain setup Right. So I'm going to look at historical data and I was OK, I'm setting the car up this way, I'm at the track, I'm going to look at historical data and I was okay, I'm setting the car up this way, I'm at the track, I'm not going to keep working on the car, I'm going to put it on the track and see what it does. Right, you know, like if I usually win with this setup right, and then I get to the finish line and I run my heat race and I finished 10 out of 10. Well, I'm gonna make some adjustments Right. So I ran that heat race. Well, I want to go back. Well, back out there in the b main right and I I'm going to change the setup because of the, because the track changed, or whatever it is. The track has changed them. Same track I'm still on roofing. But the track chain is no longer dry, dry slick. I now have a tacky track, and so I'm going to put a different set of tires on it, I'm going to put a different gear in it and I'm going to put a new setup in it. And now I'm going to run the B main from the 18th spot and I'm going to win it. But guess what? I'm going to the A main. I'm still starting at the tail on as the number 24 car.
Speaker 2:So you have to. The only way to get to the front of the pack is you got to put the car on the track right, like it's. Just like you said. You can't park it in the garage. You can't win a championship if you're on the bench. You can't win a championship if the car is in the garage. So you have to make changes as you go, but the fundamentals are still there. I still have a chassis. I still got a body. I still got brakes. I still got a motor. I still got a motor. I still got a transmission. I still got a rear end. So I'm just making these minor tweaks right. Next season I might scrap the whole car and put in a whole new chassis, a whole new motor, a whole new transmission, but in the middle of the season, like I can't do that, so I would. I would think of it in dirt track terms. I know it's crazy, but like, like you got to get out there and you got to run it.
Speaker 2:I might go all the way, way to the back of the pack but because I made a bad decision and put the wrong tires on or I put the wrong gear in it or whatever it is. But that happens. But guess what? I'm on the track, I'm running the race. Right, I'm still going to hopefully finish the race. So that's the way I would. In those terms, you have to put the car on the track and go. You have to.
Speaker 1:And that's what it is. But you're putting the car on the track with the intention of getting the data, yeah, to get the feedback right. Like, if you have that intention, hey, we're going to get the car on the track. Okay, we did 10 laps. Now we know, okay, let's try this, let's try that.
Speaker 2:Well, you rely on historical data or past marketing data, right, the market says that this type of person should buy this type of roof. Right, you rely on historical and marketing data. But when you get out there and you go to the back of the pack, it's like, well, wait a minute. This obviously is not the best setup, but I'm not scrapping the car, I'm not scrapping the motor, I'm not scrapping the transmission. I just got to make a gear change and a bar change, right, and put on a new set of tires and I go to the front. So you just got to understand the historicals are going to give you enough to get started, the market is going to give you enough to get started, but you've got to know that, hey, I might have to tweak, because my customer in this region, in this zip code, is who I want it to actually be and I'm attracting the wrong customer.
Speaker 1:What are some of your favorite tweaks over the last couple of years?
Speaker 2:Some of the favorite tweaks over the last couple of years. Some of the favorite tweaks one is really is finding the right KPI, so like. And because you got to compensate the behavior that you want, right, so like. It's a lot on production, too, because a lot of people think about you know, the sales KPI, but when, when you think about producing the product like it's, it's different. Right, so like, if, like.
Speaker 2:If I want my production manager to get as much stuff installed as what he can, but I want to have fewer punch list items, well, I'm going to base his KPIs based off of collections. Now, the team that works for him, though, they're not based on collections, they're based on earned revenue and installed revenue. So I want them to be able to install it as fast and as hard as they can, but he has to be able to oversee the quality control and force them to do quality control as well, because if he's not collecting it, then he's not getting paid his KPIs. If they're not installing it, they're not getting paid their KPIs. And then out there in a field, you know, with your field rep what we're going to call them a project manager or a runner or whatever. Like, I pay them based on returns, because they're managing the crew and I want to make sure that we're not just blowing money away on materials.
Speaker 2:So like you can start to tweak in some of these KPIs and now you see a well oil machine. Like they're paying attention to the crew and the materials, which is what I need them to do. Right, the the one step up, the actual install managers, are watching to make sure that they're getting as much stuff installed as possible. Right? So they're getting paid on that K kpi. And then the guy at the top it's based on collection, so you can't collect it unless it's unless it's completed and no punch list. So it's like you have this quality control all the way down. So like it's those little tweaks that I'll that always keep my mind going. It's like how do you incentivize that that thing that you need, right?
Speaker 1:so yeah, and what metric do you measure at that specific role? Yeah, I think it gets hard for people. It's easier on sales, right, it's an easier, it's easy on the sales side is easy. Yep, how do you do that in your, you know, with your office team?
Speaker 2:How do you do it with your? You know how do you measure the accountant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you measure it with your? You know how do you measure the accountant that the taxes got filed on time, like what? What are the cases?
Speaker 2:So so, I mean there are things that you, you can do as far as your paper or whatever, but I mean it's, it's little things of like hey, I need to have you know July closed out by the 10th of August, right, so you do measure with that. It's like, well, what's the accuracies here? And so you know, and like you know, and then you audit them, like you make sure that the books are clean. Like the best advice that I can give anybody is that you know, one or two times a year I would hire an outside firm to come in and audit your bookkeeper and your CPA. An outside firm.
Speaker 2:I don't care if it costs you 30 to 50 grand a year. It's worth every penny because you're paying somebody else that's not in the books every day, that's not looking at the categories in the journal entries and they're like, oh well, you did this, like they'll help you find stuff that you never thought, even though your CPA is great. But they're in the middle of the grind, right. So that's how you grow. Your CPA is great, but they're in the middle of the grind, right. So that's how you grow your books. Is you have an outside guy come in and look at it? Yeah, that's a.
Speaker 1:It's business is fun, john. It's crazy, man, when you love it, right, it's crazy. It's so much fun, like we. We have people don't know that they're like well, we'll get on the phone every now and then and talk for like two, three hours sometimes, just just talking about this stuff, and so it's. You know we, you can be my co-host one day or something.
Speaker 2:We'll just sit here and chat for hours.
Speaker 1:I love asking questions, I love it. It is, it's good man. And so now you know I want to kind of close this out with you know, a lot of people are, are looking at all the changes in the industry. Now you got, I mean you're, you're down in Florida now, so you're, I mean you're, you're, you're, it's right in your face, right Like I think that would you say that Florida is probably where the the most pressure is from the, from the insurance side of things. I don't know what other states are really, I mean, it seems to me it seems like that's where the big pressure is coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's flipping from the roofing industry. It's flipping to retail very, very, very quickly because of new laws and regulations. But yeah, I mean, you know, like I think it's 12 or 14 percent of all roofing is done in Florida, right, yeah. You know and like I think 30 percent of the claims nationwide are in Florida, Like it's like yes, there are a lot of insurance claims, but I do think that I want to think about two things.
Speaker 1:Right, you have there's two kind of things going on, I think, that are out there. Right, you have the changes in the insurance claims process and storm restoration work. I think that's a big challenge that people are facing. There's another thing that I think people are talking about, that they're facing, and that is private equity. Coming in and doing, you know, coming in and merging together all of these. You know coming in and and and merging together all of these great companies and and making something that is hard to compete with. Yeah, you know. Where do you see, where do you see the path for the, the owner operator, going, going into the next five, 10 years?
Speaker 2:This is a great question. So I think private equity is going to soak up about 20% of the industry. I think there's a sleeping giant that nobody's looking at. It's Home Depot. I'm going to call it Home Depot will overnight take 20% market share. They have all the data on all of our homeowners, including me as a homeowner. I think Lowe's enters in right behind them and combined I think they're 25 to 30% of the market. So I think 50% of the market is gone in seven years.
Speaker 2:So what I would say is this get really, really good at what you do. I would find as much niche work as what you can. If you're good at tile, do tile. If you're good at slate, do slate. I would get into I don't want to say this in a negative way Shingles are going to be a commodity that the giants are going to rule, because you can scale that. Stuff you can't scale is copper work. Stuff you can't scale is slate work. Stuff you can't scale is synthetics right, it's really hard to scale that. Stuff you can't scale is synthetics right, it's really hard to scale that. So I'd get really really, really good at that and make sure that you can diversify the business to switch away from shingles. I hate to say it, but like that's what's coming. You know, whatever is the easiest thing to grab is going to be part of a commodity. So I don't know if I was doom and gloom there, but like if I'm an owner operator in roofing, still I would definitely focus on the harder things and get back to what craftsmanship was instead of just trying to sling the shingles, because I think that's going to be very difficult entry.
Speaker 2:In five to seven years, the gold rush might be over. I think the gold rush is over as far as it goes. Yeah, because because you got to think right. So, like you know, like partnering up with somebody like a Home Depot, like that's going to happen. They've tried it two or three times, you know. So, now that there's consolidation in the roofing industry and you know they might partner with a private equity firm, they might build their own, I mean. I mean it's very difficult. Everybody thinks it's so unique to their market, but 80 percent of what you can do can be done in any market. So, you know, I see them being the first e-com. Like it'll be an online checkout and it'll be hard to compete with that. No sales, very low marketing budget, because they've already got all the information and the data and it's going to be hard to compete with.
Speaker 2:That's my thing. So PE will be able to compete because they have the money to back it, but they don't have the Home Depot money, Right? So I think that's going to be the thing to look at. So learn to specialize again, become a craftsman again, be okay and learn to maximize as much profit at a $10 million level. So the guys that I'm worried about are the ones that are between that seven to 18, that have high overheads and stuff like that. So if you don't have plans of getting to 30 to 40, then you know, in five years you're going to be under 10. So just be prepared for that.
Speaker 1:All right man. This has been another episode of the roofing success podcast. Thank you for tuning into the roofing success podcast. For more valuable content, visit roofing success podcast. For more valuable content, visit roofing success podcast comm. While there, check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also join the roofing success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share and leave a comment. Your support helps us continue to bring you top industry insights. The website link is in the description. Thanks for listening.
