Roofing Success
The Roofing Success Podcast is a show created to inspire roofing contractors to achieve optimal success in their roofing businesses. The host, Jim Ahlin, is the co-author of the book, "Internet Marketing For Roofing Contractors, How to TRIPLE Your Sales and Turn Your Roofing Website Into an Online Lead Generation Machine", and Co-Founder of Roofer Marketers, the Digital Marketing Agency for the roofing industry. On each episode, Jim will be sitting down with industry leaders to talk about their processes, the lessons they learned, and how to find success in roofing.
Roofing Success
How Cutting Corners on Insurance Claims Is Sabotaging Your Bottom Line with Matt Danskin
Cutting corners on insurance claims? It's killing your bottom line! In this episode, we sit down with Matt Danskin, founder of Restoration Referral Systems and co-creator of Building Experts Institute. He reveals the biggest mistakes contractors are making with insurance claims—and why skipping the right documentation is costing you time, money, and future customers.
Discover how detailed documentation, understanding policies, and focusing on quality can make you a claims expert and help you close more jobs with confidence. 🚀
✅ What You'll Learn:
- Why rushing through claims is hurting your business.
- How proper documentation sets you apart and gets claims approved.
- How doing things right up front saves you hours down the line.
🔗 https://www.restorationreferralsystem.com
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How do you shift from simply playing the roofing game to becoming a true expert that rewrites the rules? Today's guest, matt Danskin, shares how he's empowering contractors to thrive in a challenging insurance restoration market, transforming obstacles into opportunities. In this episode, we'll explore the changing landscape of insurance claims. This episode we'll explore the changing landscape of insurance claims, the keys to navigating the nuances of policies, and how the right education and preparation can make or break a contractor's success. Whether you're struggling with denied claims or looking to optimize your process, matt's insights offer a clear path forward.
Speaker 1:Matt Danskin is the founder of Restoration Referral Systems and the co-creator of Building Experts Institute, where he's changing the way contractors approach documentation, policy, understanding and claim resolution. Known for his passion for education and empowering contractors, matt is helping transform businesses with actionable strategies and tools that make a difference. What sets Matt apart is his relentless commitment to professionalism and integrity in the roofing industry. His approach isn't just about quick wins. It's about building long-term trust with customers, delivering results and proving that doing the hard work up front pays dividends. In today's episode, you'll learn why detailed documentation matters, how to leverage policies to your advantage and how slowing down to focus on quality can skyrocket your success. Let's dive in with Matt Danskin from Building Experts Institute. Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. Matt Danskin, how are you, man?
Speaker 2:It's been a while it has, man, it's good to see you and it's good to you know. Get on here and talk again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the evolution of what you guys got going on. I think the last time you were on we were talking about kind of your structure and your format for developing relationships with insurance agents. That was kind of through your company restoration referral systems, and now you guys have launched the Building Experts Institute, which is an amazing experience there. And is that just with Matt Mulholland, or are there other?
Speaker 2:people involved there too. There's one other partner, john Tillman, so John used to work for me with Restoration Referral System. Uh, and you know, really, I think that's where I discovered his, his talent, his ability to create beautiful audio video experiences.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, man. I love the, I love the way this is going. I think Matt's one of the I mean, he's almost too smart to talk to sometimes, like Mulholland right, like he, he, he's, he, he's. He's one of those guys and, um, and so I love the partnership that you guys have created and we were talking a little while ago and, and, and you know we're, there's so much doom and gloom in the industry, especially from the insurance restoration side of things. Yeah, and it was I don't know if it was it was strange to me a little refreshing that, you know, in talking to you, you're like, yeah, I don't see it that way. So you know, you know what, I guess you know what is the state of the industry and how can a contractor you know position themselves to, to, to survive and thrive in the current insurance restoration market?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, things are definitely changing, you know, and I think for anybody boots on the ground that's very obvious, right? Many of the carriers that used to come out and write a pretty good scope and approve claims are just not. They're outright denying things, they're just applying a repair when it should be a full replacement. They're massively underpaying things and they're making it, they're pulling out all the stops to slow down and minimize payments. And you know, I think to really understand, and that's where a lot of the guys that are seeing that, that are getting frustrated day in, day out and they're kind of consumed with that Many of them I'm seeing are operating in a way similar to what they were five, ten years ago, which is finding damage, telling the homeowner to file a claim and having the adjuster come out and scope that loss and then supplementing it. Right, that's the model that pretty much everybody was following and many people still are, and I think they're seeing so much friction there. They're seeing things slow down and just become impossible there. I think that's where a lot of people are saying, hey, the insurance restoration industry is going away, right, we're going. Where a lot of people are saying, hey, the insurance restoration industry is going away. Right, we're going all retail like we've got. That's the only option you know, and you know for a while I just kind of scratched my head like what you know? What are they experiencing? What are they seeing? That that's the case.
Speaker 2:Obviously, with the education that we do with people like Matt Mulhoholland and many others, it gets into a lot of the nitty gritty and one of the things really just structurally is looking at an insurance policy and I know we're contractors. We can't, you know, interpret policy, but that doesn't mean you can't be educated on what policy is and how it works and what it means. You just can't interpret this particular policy and apply coverage to this claim. But if you look at it, it's the policyholder's duty to prove their loss. They need to tell the insurance company I experienced this covered loss and you owe for it and for so long the insurance companies were really good about just doing that for the policyholder. And there's still some. There's still some duty that they need to do a fair investigation. They need to do all that sort of stuff, but it gets really gray and murky in terms of where those responsibilities start and stop. So with a lot of successful contractors and PAs that we teach.
Speaker 2:We're really starting with an understanding of this policy holder needs to prove their loss, an understanding of this policy holder needs to prove their loss.
Speaker 2:We can document and help them do that Right.
Speaker 2:And so, instead of them filing a claim and then letting the adjuster screw everything up and then trying to fix that you know you get a lot of friction there is actually taking the taking the lead on it and going I'm going to document everything, and that may be photos, that may be third party reports, it may be you know all sorts of documentation, code, references, an estimate, a scope, all those types of things to say this is what is damaged and this is how much it's going to cost to replace it.
Speaker 2:Now you't have to say insurance company, you're the one that owes for this right, like that's where the UPPA stuff comes in. We can't necessarily say that stuff unless you're a PA or an attorney, but if you do a lot of that legwork on the front end, it smooths things out. And so really with with BEI Building Experts Institute, we've we've been focusing on teaching all the nitty gritty to allow people to do that. Well, right, to write an expert report and document the claims to correctly identify damage. That's an important one. You wouldn't, you wouldn't, suspect't suspect and actually you know, assess repairability and and build the thing and exactament certifications, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:So it sounds. It seems like it starts with that right like the, and it always has right. It's always started with that correct identification and you know, a lot of the friction that I've kind of seen in the industry over the years is the inexperienced sales rep throwing claims at the insurance companies, right? And then that's where the friction happens with the adjusters, and then it continues down the road. Is that what like? Is that what like? Is that I?
Speaker 2:I would say yes and no. So sometimes it is that inexperienced person uh, because you know, I I've trained new guys up on the roof right and the eye that's seen 10 000 hail hits can see them differently than the one that's looking at it for the first time. Yeah, but I've also talked to contractors who have been doing this for five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. That go well, I know that's not hail, I know that's. You know just old age, I know that's blisters, I know that's whatever. But I got you know whatever.
Speaker 2:A one in 10 chance, a two in 10 chance that that adjuster is going to come out, that they're going to pay for it anyway, and so I I might as well roll the dice, yeah, and they don't think about any of the consequences on the policy holder. They don't think about what is actually right and wrong, like if you're an expert and you can correctly identify that the right thing with integrity to do is to go. That is not hail damage, right, sorry for the homeowner, yeah, but really that that's where you know we, we want to gripe and complain about the carrier side, and there's definitely things to gripe and complain about. I'm not. I got my shirt says legalized fair claim settlements. But I promise you, I think there's there's fair, fair things to argue about there, but we have to keep our side of the street clean too. Yeah, and so I think it's both. It's both that experienced guy who wants to just say, hey, maybe it'll, maybe it'll go through anyway.
Speaker 1:Or it, yeah, you know. If that you know, let's, let's hope for the best. Like, file it, and if we get it, we get it.
Speaker 2:Well, and the other side of that is the guys who maybe it is damaged and maybe it's a legitimate claim and they throw it against the wall. They don't do any work, they don't do any documentation. Hey, let's see if the adjuster approves it. Nope, they didn't. Okay, let's go get another customer, because it's easier to go knock on another door and get another customer than it is to go.
Speaker 2:No, let's show our work, let's show why this claim does have merit. This claim does have merit. And so I think, if you start from the position of we're going to do what's right and we're going to make sure that, whether we get that dream adjuster or that horrible adjuster, that this claim gets paid properly. So I've been referring to it as Schrodinger's claim, because you don't know, even if you have damage, even if everything's there, even if you've looked at the policy, you don't know how this claim is going to go until you get into it. And so you have to kind of treat every single one of them as we need to document this thing and prove them. You know beyond a doubt what did or did not happen here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I was. I definitely there are the, definitely the contractors that just throw the claims I see that that just go moving on to another customer. I see that a lot of times from the marketing side right where I'm helping contractors with marketing, and it's like if you have reps that are trained for door to door sales and you start having them have to work internet leads and nurture people and do things like this, it's like they don't want to spend the time, they're just they'll just knock another door. There's another deal around the corner, just keep knocking Right and so why do you think that? Why do you think that the that that happens, like, why do you is it? Is it that they that, that, uh, that someone just doesn't want to spend the time or they're not properly educated? Do they what? What do you think the problem is?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I think a big part of the problem is that the the wins are big enough and they're easy enough that they keep people coming back, right.
Speaker 2:So, just like you go to the slot machines in Vegas and you know the thing is a ripoff, you know the thing is a loser right, but you keep putting enough quarters in and eventually you're going to hit a jackpot, right, and if I, if I hit enough doors, if I throw enough speed out against the wall, some of it's going to stick. And because roofing is such a an awesome trade, I love it. It's it's high ticket, it's high margin, it's high frequency, which means high commissions. Right, it really is a awesome scenario to make a killing if you do it right. But because, because it's so good, it allows for those inefficiencies where, if, if it weren't as profitable, if it weren't as high of a ticket, people would have to hone their skills, they would have to become more efficient in order for this thing to work. But because it's it's such a great industry uh, you know, it's kind of the good and the bad of it. Right, because it is such a great opportunity, you really don't have to be fine-tuned in order to still make six figures.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of room for error, and it is amazing how there's a lot of room for error from so many sides, right, like in every part of the process going through. So I think you're right there and because the reward is still there. But is that maybe what the fear is right? Is that what we're hearing in the industry then? That it's like that reward the odds are getting less and less, the odds are getting lessened, so people aren't hitting the jackpot as often and as easily. Is that what we're hearing from the industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is they know if I throw spaghetti against the wall, it's not sticking as often, right, and so it's becoming less and less efficient. They're saying this is going away. I need to switch to a retail model which retails. Great, do retail. But if you're going to retail just because the adjusters are eating your lunch, well, it doesn't have to be right.
Speaker 2:There is education, obviously. I sell education. I want people to go learn it from us. We're trying to do everything we can to provide value there. Get education somewhere, whether it's from me or somewhere else there's and, by the way, it's not me.
Speaker 2:I teach one of our like dozen courses but it's. It's a matter of. If you have the right information, you can work through. Okay. What does this documentation look like? How can I do this really really well without spending a ton of time every time? Right, how can I identify things not only so well that you know this is hail or this isn't hail, but you can explain it to someone who's writing the check for it in a way that they'll understand or hail, or wind, or whatever it is. In a way that they'll understand, uh, or hail or wind, or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think you can build a toolbox of knowledge here. Uh, understanding building code is a huge, huge one. And you know Mike Goldenstein uh actually teaches our course on that. And uh, you know you're talking about Matt Mulholland, he's, you know I love nerding out with him about claims and damage and shooting the hail cannon. We've got right over here, uh, doing all this sort of stuff. But, um, mike is the same way when it comes to building codes that he just he'll sit there and rattle off. Uh, I know a lot of the building codes, I know how they work, all that sort of stuff. I don't remember the one, oh, nine dot three, dot one, dot.1.1 stuff that he does, which is just fascinating. But if you piece together those tools, really it makes these claims so, so much easier. So you are walking away from the claims that aren't valid, but you're being really efficient with the ones that are.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of a quote from Jim Rohn, the old business philosopher. He passed away years ago, but it's, it's don't wish things were easier, wish you were better, right, like. And so a lot of times that's what happens. And, man, the some good, really good contractors that I've interviewed over the years maybe on camera and off camera I've heard them say like they almost wait for the tough times because it gets rid of the not the competition, but it gets rid of the bad competition, right, and they are willing to put the work in to get to the next level and to make things happen to make sure that they're doing things the right way.
Speaker 1:You know we talked about. You talked about building codes. You know we're talking. We talked a little bit about correctly identifying things. Documentation is a big thing. I've talked to Matt Mulholland about that on the podcast. I've talked to Matt Mulholland about that on the podcast. What do you think the foundation is that they can build upon? Like? What is that core, the core knowledge set that they like? If you have this now, you're going to be in a position to really build into the future along the way. Is it building codes? Is it claim damage? You know, is it?
Speaker 2:is it identification? Where? Where does what? What would you say? The foundation is, well, I mean, I think they, they all work so hand in hand that you, you can't really pull them apart. You know, with our courses, we have, you know, gone really, really deep into each topic and we talk about how they interact with each other, right, but you can't if you just know building code but you don't know how policy works, it's not going to do a whole lot for you. Or if you have documentation but you don't know what to document, you don't know how to identify things, right, it doesn't work, you know.
Speaker 2:So, really, that's why we've, you know, continued, you know, and we're going to continue cranking out uh courses, but, uh, really, they all feed into each other. So, I think, having that depth of knowledge, and not just the, you know, I took a rudimentary, you know, uh ride along with somebody, uh, for a couple of days and I I watched some, some training from a sales guy. But actually understanding that stuff, you know the old Einstein, you know, if you can't explain it to a five-year-old, maybe you don't understand it that well, right, and you need to be able to have a really, really deep understanding of it because some of these adjusters, it's like talking to a five-year-old. So if you can get out the crayons and spell everything out for them, you can have a lot better case.
Speaker 1:So sorry, that wasn't a great answer for what's the one thing, but the foundation might be right. The foundation may be. You know, you understand the building codes in your area, you understand how to inspect and identify damage and you understand the documentation process. Right, like, maybe that's the foundation that people need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I would. I would add to that understanding how the insurance policy works.
Speaker 1:Because there is a lot.
Speaker 2:There is a lot of misunderstanding with that and, again, as a contractor you can't interpret that policy. But that doesn't mean that you need to be completely ignorant of how policies work. That's right, because adjusters will definitely use that against you. Sometimes they're miseducated, sometimes they just know that the contractor is miseducated. And you have to understand that stuff so you know how to navigate it.
Speaker 1:Definitely there's a lot of nuance in the policy, right, yeah. And so what are some of those things? What are? Like? Let's go through each of those. Maybe I know you don't teach the courses, but maybe we could go through each of those and say here's some highlights of each right, like, what are some highlights in starting to understand policy? Or in building codes and things like that? Or in building codes and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would say starting to understand policies. Obviously you have your basics of understanding ACV and RCV, understanding exclusions that may be in there, understanding additional coverages that may be part of that policy, understanding caps for certain types of things. But really there's a lot of things that get confused right now in terms of like matching endorsements, and you know the policy will essentially say it doesn't owe for matching and there's a lot of exclusions. It does not owe for wear and tear, it does not owe for, you know, fill in the blank, there's a lot of things that are excluded as a cause of loss, right. And so if the cause of loss is wear and tear your roof just got old your insurance policy probably doesn't cover that. I don't know any that do. But that'll be misappropriated here, where maybe the cause of loss is wind damage and the condition of the roof was that it is old, it's 25 years old, it's in a state of wear and tear, it's degrading, the granules are loosening up, it doesn't have the same durability to wind that it did when it was brand new out of the box, but the cause of loss is still wind. And so, even though there may be an exclusion as a cause of loss for wear and tear. We still have a covered peril there, and so, you know, part of what we teach in our documentation courses is thinking through what are the things, what are the objections that you're going to get to this? Well, they may say there's an old damage and new damage. Well, we need to parse that out for them as as best as we can Right there. There are situations where they don't over that old damage because it's, you know, before the policy period or you know whatever it's. But it may be that the new damage is still a covered loss, and so if you can accurately identify the new versus the old, it can make that whole thing go a lot better versus them just going nope, this is, this, is all, old, go away. Because they know a lot of those contractors are just going to say sorry, mrs Jones, I'm moving on to the next one. I'm going to go knock another door because this claim looks too hard, which is really not hard if you just do all that stuff on the front end, you know.
Speaker 2:So the other thing I would say was with those matching endorsements or those matching exclusions, where they're saying we don't owe for that the matching of the stuff. Well, they don't as a cause of loss If you just go hey, my roof doesn't match that's. You know. That would be silly, right when we say it that way. But when you are, they do owe for proper repairs. And so there's no situation where you are doing an insurance claim and you can do an illegal repair, and there are circumstances where you can do a legal repair where the material is available that's compatible with it. There may not be any issues there where you can install it to manufacture guidelines. There are situations where you can do that.
Speaker 2:In a lot of situations there is simply no way to follow code and do the prescribed scope of repairs that they've given you. So that was one of the brilliant things in Mike's course about codes is explaining that process. I had that wrong for years and years where they would go well, get a letter from the building department saying that you have to do X, y and Z, and almost never will they do that for you. The building department won't, and so you're just stuck. Well, that was basically due to a fundamental misunderstanding by me and I would say, a lot of contractors and a lot of adjusters that that was the process.
Speaker 2:But if you go to the building department, really, what you need to say is, hey, can you modify this code so that I can do this scope of repairs?
Speaker 2:They've told me to do this scope of repairs this way and I know it's going to violate this code and violate this code and violate this code, but can I, pretty please? And they are required to answer that, either to approve it, which they have to do, the required testing for that, and somebody's got to pay for that. And they're usually not going to go through all that stuff and want to create the liability of breaking all these codes, but they are required to, in writing, say no, you cannot do that because it breaks these codes and these are important. And so having the like I said, that deep understanding of how all these things work together, allows you to navigate those situations and see down the road a little bit of what are the objections that we're going to get, what are the denials that we're going to get. Let's go ahead and button all those up before this claim is even filed or before this adjuster even opens their computer to look at it.
Speaker 1:I think that's I mean, that's been something that successful contractors have done for years, and also it is just just being prepared, right, understanding, man, if I make this easy for the adjuster just with that simple concept, right, if I make this easy for the adjuster, I'm going to get more claims approved, right, and not have an adversarial relationship. Like hey, look, I already looked into this. I went to the city, we got the building code. You know, like, if you have all of this in place, like how can? How it makes it, it makes it easier on them.
Speaker 2:And I will also say if you look at the dynamics, these adjusters are almost always overworked like overloaded with claims, right.
Speaker 2:And so if they, if they've been given a mandate, hey, we need to deny, deny, deny, deny. And they've got this little file that has seven photos and they're waiting on the adjusters estimate and the damage is marginal or whatever. Whatever the damage is, and the damage is marginal or whatever, whatever the damage is what it is, and they have my file that has, you know, 20 pages of documentation. It has a full estimate, it has a scope, it has an affidavit from the customer, it has a proof of loss form. They go, you know, it's the old, you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the other guy running from the bear. And they look at all their files on their desk and go we're going to approve some of these, we're going to deny a lot of them. They're not denying that one because they know you're not going away, they know that you have them dead to rights, that this thing is going to happen, and so a lot of it's just purely that intimidation. I guess the other thing that I think dissuades a lot of contractors from doing this documentation is they go. Man, that is a ton of work. What if I do all that work and then they deny it anyway, and they might.
Speaker 2:I'm not here to say you know, this stuff works 100% of the time. You know it's perfect, but you're solving a finite number of problems, right? There are only so many types of roofing systems that you work on. There are only so many types of perils that affect those roofing systems. There are only so many different situations. And so, you know, we actually have templates in our documentation course, but you can go make your own templates and go. Okay, every time I'm dealing with an asphalt shingle roof that has hail damage to it, what are, you know? How does an engineering firm define hail damage to an asphalt shingle roof? How do they describe that? Okay, how can I, you know, put my CV in this report? How can I, you know, put all this information in there? And then a lot of that's just templated, boilerplate information that you get to use over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:The problem is, a lot of people won't go through and do the work or understand what needs to be there. So that's why we're trying to make this. We're trying to make this spread across the industry. You know, we we actually get I've gotten other trainers in our industry mad at me because of our pricing model. With BEI, we charge $109 a month. There's no commitment to it. You know, it's like a netflix subscription you can get in there and you have access to everything, um, which we could charge 10 times as much, and a lot of people do, uh, but I don't want to just cash in and make a bunch of money off a handful of people. I want to equip everybody that wants this information to have it. Yeah, and we do have to charge for it. We, you know, we put in a really good production. It costs a lot of money to put all this on, but we don't have to have any one person paying the whole bill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great what you guys are doing. The thing that I think the core thing there that you spoke about, though, is time right. It's that people don't the struggle with putting in the work up front and taking the time to do it. Time to do it. You know, you said, do you guys have some, have templates and things like that. Like what is a great way to create an efficient process for this? Like if you had to define the like the most efficient process that a contractor could could do for this, in, in, in, throughout the claims process, from identification all the way through, and then what would be a good allotted amount of time, because, from an owner's perspective, if they're going to have their reps doing this, or if they're going to have someone in office doing part of it, how can they efficiently delegate these tasks also? So let's start with what would an efficient process look like and how much time would you, would you think that it could get down to?
Speaker 2:Sure, and I'll explain those things. I want to make the point. You know a lot of guys don't want to do the. You know, I would say it's probably about two hours worth of work between your inspection and your documentation on the front end. They don't want to invest those two hours because they want to go knock more doors, they want to go sign another contract. They want to do that, and then they'll spend 40 hours over the next six months monkeying around with this claim, and so I won't invest the two to save and you're not going to save the whole 40, right, but you can probably save 30 of those 40, right, going to save the whole 40, right, but you can probably save 30 of those 40, right.
Speaker 2:And so what that process looks like to me is is, first of all, doing thorough documentation. I am the one that teaches our inspection course, and having that absolutely dummy proof, same process every single time, and I, the process that we have, uh, a lot of it I developed myself because I know my own failure points. I know that I will get lazy, I know that I will get distracted, I know that all these things that all of us deal with, and so you just have to build this process that accounts for that right, that takes that out of the equation, and doing a process where I'm taking a photo of every square inch of that property. I am getting it all in on the first inspection, which I know a lot of guys don't want to do. But doing that documentation, getting down to the nitty gritty, we're doing test squares, we're taking close-up photos of the damage, we're taking measurements on things, we're documenting how wide and tall our shingle is and how thick it is and what the reveal is and what our underlayment is and what our drip edge is and how the gutters are attached and all the things right. And what having that process does is it allows your brain to actually focus on what is going on here. What happened with this storm? Did this storm actually happen? Where did it come from? What damage did it do? What you know? What things do I need to think through here? Because I'm not thinking about what photo I need to take next, because that's just part of that process. You get that routine. So that inspection process is so, so critical on the front end.
Speaker 2:The next piece is talking through with homeowners and making sure that they understand this process, so explaining hey, we're going to do all this documentation. I'm going to give you transparency, I want to show you everything. It builds trust with them because ultimately, that carrier may try to pull us apart. They may try to say, hey, why don't you use one of our contractors? Right? They may say, oh yeah, that guy's just price gouging, he's just, he's just greedy. Right, because I want you know, underlayment, that's proper, right, the all these things. We need to build that trust above the trust that they have with the carrier that they've been spending money with for years and years. Right, that's, that's not a a little thing. But there there are ways that you can hack that trust building and you have to actually be trustworthy. You actually have to have something to lean on to do that. But you can build that customer relationship on the front end and tell them all the things that may happen.
Speaker 2:We're going to do it this way because the carrier might try to say this but that's why we've got the code, we've got you know, they might try to say that it was a different storm, that's why we've got the weather data. Explain it to the homeowner and I know a lot of homeowner, you know a lot of contractors don't want to do that because they go, no, let's just, I want to file, I want to get on to the next one and it's so, so short-sighted. I see these guys that you spoke hey, I got 40 signed contracts this weekend, cool, and they ended up building two of those jobs right, like you don't get paid for. Well, maybe they do get paid for contracts. Most people don't get paid for contractors. The guy, uh, you know that owns the company certainly doesn't get paid for contracts. You get paid for the stuff that you actually get to build and collect on. And so if you focus on doing that really thorough inspection and getting that customer on your side and then putting that documentation together so here's this'll probably be the most controversial thing that I say on your podcast Put all that together, put together a scope of work.
Speaker 2:Here are the repairs that we intend to perform, and that doesn't have to be comprehensive of everything that's damaged in the storm, but it can be comprehensive of what you're doing. Write an estimate. If you do not know how to estimate the trade that you perform, you should learn how to do that. If you think that the insurance company might pay more than what you are estimating, then you need to learn how to estimate properly, because I've. It is very, very rare that the insurance company is going to come out with an initial offer that's higher than what yours is. Write it the way that it should be written. Back it up with code. Include everything that should be included. Back it up with code. Include everything that should be included. And again, we're not interpreting policy. We're not saying insurance company, you owe for this, but we're saying this is the cost to repair this property and direct the customer. Here's where you can find a proof of loss form that may be state specific, it might be policy specific, it may be a general form. They can probably crank one up on chat GPT and have the policy holder submit all of that together as their electronically, as their way of filing the claim.
Speaker 2:Don't call the 1-800-DENY-ME filing the claim. Don't call the 1-800-DENY-ME, don't call the agent and I'm the agent guy, right, and what happens there is instead of the insurance company looking at you know. You call them up and they go okay, you've got a 2,500 square foot house. It has a 30 square roof. We typically pay 415 a square in your area. Beep, boop, boop.
Speaker 2:Here's our algorithm. We're going to set aside a reserve of this much money and that's usually a low number and then the adjuster is going to kind of going to try to undershoot that number. And then you have to provide all the documentation. You have to fight tooth and nail for every dollar getting it up to the correct, proper amount, versus if that policyholder files the claim with your estimate, with your scope of repairs. The assumption is, this is the correct number and I'm not saying they're going to pay that number, but they're going to set the reserve at the number that you've estimated. And then they're going to go out and so that adjuster has a bigger budget and he's still probably going to try to come in under budget to be a good company guy. But that sets this up, so that now I'm I'm arguing over $2,000 instead of arguing over $10,000.
Speaker 2:I'm, I'm arguing over $2,000 instead of arguing over $10,000 and we've, and they need to prove to me why these things need to come off my estimate instead of me proving why these things need to be added to theirs. So there's my process. I know that's a mouthful, but I I feel it. There. There's so much misinformation and so many problems that are happening in that process. Everyone wants to rush to. Let's file this claim right now. It may take you a day to put that estimate together. There's tools and there's abilities to where you can put that estimate. It doesn't have to be an exactimate. I like exactimate, but it doesn't have to be. You can put that together day one, day two, and maybe you're investing a little bit of time on this front end, but it saves so, so much on the back end.
Speaker 1:And that's I love that. If you put in the time up front, it's going to save you time on the other side, right, and that's a lot of times times. That's where the worry is right. Like you mentioned, it's like, well, if I put in this time up front, what if the claim doesn't even get approved? But if you put in the time up front and your customers are filing good claims because with all that work you're making sure that man, this is a, this is a roof that definitely needs repaired or replaced, right, like, we're, really like, you're also ensuring the, the integrity of your business in that aspect of it in a way. Right, like you're, you're, you're.
Speaker 1:And so now, is there anything that you've seen contractors separate between their field teams and their in-office teams to help create efficiencies in this process? Do you? Do you see, like, have you seen an example of, hey, sales reps just go out there and document the heck out of it. Now we pass that off into an inside team. They run with it. Then, like is, have you seen a good, or or do you think it's, it's better position that the salesperson is, you know, does the inspection and does the rest of the process, so that they're kind of above. Uh, it's more in their hands. Which way do you see more efficient, or could it work both ways?
Speaker 2:It can definitely work both ways. I think it works better divided. So you do have that salesperson selling the job right and you typically have certain types of brains that are successful at sales, that are successful at that process, and I think you can get that sales brain to be successful at a thorough documentation process. There are guys that will segment it there and go we're going to have you sell the job and then somebody else come in and do the inspection because we know you're going to do a terrible inspection and they just throw up their hands and go forget it. Let's. Let's get this guy who's got an inspections to do it. That's a fair way to do it.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying you can do that either way. I think sales guys can be taught if they have a clear process to follow. Um, I think on the the other side of it of let's put all the code documentation together, let's put the weather data together, let's create this whole report, I think that's rarely going to be a salesperson's brain that also excels at that right and also that you're solving the same problem over and over and over again. So a lot of that can be templatized and that can allow that salesperson to still do that thing well, but you may want to have your office person putting that file together right, getting all this together so that the the policyholder can submit it in filing their claim and directing the policyholder that way. In filing their claim and directing the policyholder that way, the you know and you know the follow-up and all that sort of stuff that you need to do with the carrier.
Speaker 2:I think that's typically better. I've seen guys succeed with just one guy. He's the guy. I'm kind of that type of guy where I'm good at sales, I'm good at documentation, I'm good at all that sort of stuff, but a lot of people aren't. A lot of people are going to be lean really heavily one one direction or the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would be the person without the documentation Like just I'll go out and sell it, but that you know the details. You know that that's better suited for the for someone else. So I guess, know your team Right and structure it properly. You know, structure it properly for your else. So I guess, know your team right and structure it properly for your team. What else do you see coming down the pipe? Because there's really a fear, right, there's a fear that a lot of the PE firm back companies are going to just create relationships with the insurance companies on the back end and cut contractors out. There's fears that the legislative process is going to eliminate a lot of the ability to file claims and that gives more power to the insurance companies. What else is, do you see on the horizon? The fears in the industry you know that you feel are valid or invalid.
Speaker 2:You know, I think a lot of it's the the same that we've dealt with for a long time. There's always the the ebbs and flows of legislation getting, you know, better for the carrier, getting better for the policyholder. There's always the ebbs and flows of the MRP, right, and I think that is with so many of these mega companies being cobbled together that they're making a push towards. We need, you know, we've got a lot of mouths to feed. Let's do this at a lower margin. We can do it at scale, we can.
Speaker 2:You know, I think ultimately I'm not a big fan of MRPs. I think they are. They take the policyholder and just say you get what you get and you know the contractor is going to make some money and probably cut some corners to do it, and the carrier is going to save some money and the policyholder gets left out. And if that scope is wrong, if the pricing's wrong, then so be it. If I'm this $100 million, $200 million company and I've got this one claim that's maybe losing money or maybe not making very much money, and I've got, you know, a ton of my money coming in through this MRP, I'm probably not going to advocate for them. I don't want to rock the boat. I'm just going to let them get shafted so that I can keep going on. So I think the dynamics of it are just fundamentally flawed, that it's going to continue to struggle to take root. Now it will happen. It has happened. It's, you know, continuing to grow, but I think so. So many customers are still going to want to choose who is working on their property. They are going to want to be advocated for, whether that's a PA or a contractor or whatever it is. They want their claim done properly, and so I think there's going to be resistance to that.
Speaker 2:I think you know a lot of guys look at this. Oh, well, you know, 10 percent, 20 percent of the market gets taken over by MRP. What am I going to do? Well, you're probably not doing 80% of the market anyway. Right, there's still a lot of pie left to eat, and it's the more profitable end of the pie too, uh, and so you know I I typically go with the. You know, let those guys have the low margin, low quality, low integrity stuff and focus on that cream off the top of the barrel. Where can you find those customers that you know? Uh, want to pay a premium and upgrade and do all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good point your percentage of market share in your market. I did an event for ICO a couple of years ago one of the profit power events here in the Twin Cities area and so I knew a lot of the contractors and I was like man, there's probably just in this room on a Wednesday afternoon or whatever it was. There was probably $250 million in gross revenue in that room and that was only the ICO guys that showed up, not the GAF master elites, not the OC platinum perverts, not the like, not every, not the market.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got 10% of them right, or maybe maybe five.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is a good perspective. Is what I want to point out to people that man, and if you do a good job and you develop relationships and you are known as the roofing contractor that has that integrity and the contractor that solves problems for homeowners because that's really what we do Right, and so having that mindset and having that like you know, you could do all right, you know, let me just let me just say this for the guys that are afraid of investing an hour into doing a really thorough inspection and another hour into explaining this whole process to the homeowner, right, and you know, another hour of putting together your documentation, so call it three hours instead of two.
Speaker 2:But you, the guys that are afraid of investing that time on the front end, think about what that does with the customer.
Speaker 2:If I've invested all this time, I've created this beautiful report, I've done all this sort of stuff, how are they going to assume I'm going to do their roof versus the guy that stuck a ladder up, popped his head up, goes yep, it's damaged here, signed my contract.
Speaker 2:Who do you want to work with so that that does influence your closing rates?
Speaker 2:You're still not going to close everything.
Speaker 2:You're going to close a lot more investing your time and being a professional and doing that type of thing than just trying to save time, right, trying to get on to the next one, and then you know the time that you're actually able to spend doing customer service, paying attention to your customer, communicating with them, doing all the things that you want to do, because you're not having to call the carrier 50 times, because you're not having to do three re-inspections, because you're not having to go round and round, because you did it on the front end and now that customer had a great experience.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what they're going to talk to their neighbors about. You know and these are not black and white things right, it's not every customer that's going to refer you, but I promise I've seen it both ways. I've done the let's you know shortcut do this as quick and easy as we possibly can. And I've done the let's slow down and spend time with this customer and do it right, and you end up selling so, so much more slowing down and doing it right and investing into that customer.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, man. I think that's a great place to stop. That's great advice for people you know take time, focus on the customer. That's how you're going to win. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast. Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast. For more valuable content, visiting success podcast comm. While there, check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also join the roofing success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share and leave a comment. Your support helps us continue to bring you top industry insights. The website link is in the description. Thanks for listening.
