Roofing Success
The Roofing Success Podcast is a show created to inspire roofing contractors to achieve optimal success in their roofing businesses. The host, Jim Ahlin, is the co-author of the book, "Internet Marketing For Roofing Contractors, How to TRIPLE Your Sales and Turn Your Roofing Website Into an Online Lead Generation Machine", and Co-Founder of Roofer Marketers, the Digital Marketing Agency for the roofing industry. On each episode, Jim will be sitting down with industry leaders to talk about their processes, the lessons they learned, and how to find success in roofing.
Roofing Success
Standing Out Loud: The Power of Unconventional Marketing for Your Roofing Company with Black and White Roofing
Get ready for a conversation with Joe and Wes from Black and White Roofing, whose innovative strategies are turning heads in the roofing world. Ever thought a pair of mismatched shoes or bullhorns on a Bentley could redefine brand image? Joe and Wes push boundaries, inspired by a steakhouse concept, and aim to compete with the likes of Red Bull. Their bold approach and unique branding tactics are not only attracting attention but also redefining success in a competitive market.
Authenticity and passion lie at the heart of their journey. Joe and Wes open up about building meaningful business connections and navigating entrepreneurship with a focus on personal beliefs and values. They explore how embracing feedback and prioritizing alignment in values have helped them foster a sense of freedom in their business, allowing them to pursue ambitious goals with confidence. Their story is a testament to the power of staying true to one's vision, even in the face of challenges like insurance and market dynamics.
The roofing industry is fraught with challenges, and Joe and Wes are not ones to shy away from them. From discussing strategic growth decisions to considering franchising as a way to empower small business owners, they share insights into maintaining high standards amidst pricing disputes and industry trends. These roofing rebels emphasize the significance of quality, ethical practices, and the potential future of partnerships between supply companies and insurance firms. Their journey is a compelling narrative on innovation, growth, and the relentless pursuit of excellence.
🔗 https://blackandwhiteroof.com/
🔑 Key Takeaways:
- Bold Branding Leads to Recognition
- Attention is the First Step to Success
- Comfort Zones Are Barriers to Growth
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Imagine turning a name meant for a steakhouse into a brand that shakes up the roofing world and even dreams of competing with Red Bull. Joe and Wes from Black and White Roofing have done just that. From sporting mismatched black and white shoes to putting bullhorns on a Bentley, their bold moves redefine what it means to stand out. In this episode, we dive deep into their journey. What it means to stand out. In this episode, we dive deep into their journey how they've used attention-grabbing marketing to dominate their local market while building a business that's as unconventional as it is impactful. Whether it's leveraging creativity to outshine competitors or exploring new ventures like energy drinks and real estate, their story is a masterclass in branding and staying true to your vision. Joe and Wes aren't just roofing contractors. They're bold innovators who've challenged the norms to build a business that's as memorable as their brand, with focus on quality, authenticity and making noise in a crowded market. They're proving that success is black and white. In today's episode, you'll learn the power of embracing discomfort, why attention always comes first and how a clear brand identity can open doors you've never imagined. Let's get into it with Joe and Wes from Black and White Roofing.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. It's Joe and Wes from Black and White Roofing America. How's it going? Fellas Good, going good, good man, I'm glad to have you guys back on. You know, the first time we had a conversation, you know you had 99 problems but a lead wasn't one, right, and that was. A lot has changed, right, like the markets change, the weather changes, the. There's a lot going on in the world, so it's a lot of fun stuff to talk about. I think one thing to start with is you know you guys have really been marketers and have been really great at getting attention for your roofing company. What are some of the things that you've learned now over the years, about getting attention for your roofing company? What are some of the things that you've learned now over the years, about getting attention?
Speaker 2:Well, so I would start with, you know, when I was kind of telling all my friends and my family about, hey, I'm going to start a roofing company. It's going to be called Black and White, I actually had the name Black and White years before that and I was wanting to make it a steakhouse, but I ended up. My uncle talked me out of that, but it just nobody thought it was a good idea. Like, what does black and white have to do with roofing? Well, nothing. That's the best part. I don't want to be in roofing the rest of my life.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I'm sure you can relate um, you know it's, we're just. You know it's cash flow, but we're really building the brand. I don't know what it's going to end up being. You know it's, we're just, you know it's cashflow, but we're really building the brand. I don't know what it's going to end up being. You know, my ultimate goal, I think, is you know, I want to compete with Red Bull, so with our energy coming out, so Speak to that a little bit, because that's what you guys did in your local area, right?
Speaker 1:The first thing was is you started capturing the attention of people in the area with black and white roofing, the black and white brand, the, the, the limos, wrapped up black and white, the, the, the, the, the, walking around with two different color shoe, with a black and white shoe on one black and one white shoe on, like all of these things.
Speaker 3:It seems like that that experience has opened your mind up to branding in on a larger scale, right, you're trying to say was that, um, a lot of people like said it wouldn't work, and I think, yeah, carry on throughout like yeah, watch, watch me, really watch me like the black and white shoe thing makes people uncomfortable, so they think that you shouldn't do it because they would be uncomfortable doing it.
Speaker 2:But in reality it's not that weird or uncomfortable I mean, we just saw the largest, what biggest fight in world history mike tyson versus jake paul jake paul, yeah I mean, he's famous for wearing half black and half white and I did it first but I mean, it's just, better yeah it's crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, if it seems a little uncomfortable or like it's going to get attention. I mean, that's really what you're looking for is attention to come your way so that people are aware of you. Um, if you're just the same old boring I mean, there's a couple of roofing companies here that we probably still haven't even heard of and don't know who they are that's right Any advertising or marketing and maybe that works for them.
Speaker 3:But I think in today's world you want customers coming to you. You don't want to have to go get them all yourself.
Speaker 2:So you've got to be loud.
Speaker 1:That's what it takes. I think that's part of it too, that that being uncomfortable is the problem, like people, that people don't get out of that comfort zone, and then they wonder why things aren't working out for them. Like you know, you guys have stepped far outside of your comfort zone on a lot of things. I'm sure what was the most uncomfortable? What was the most uncomfortable thing that you guys did from a from marketing and branding perspective, my three foot hair.
Speaker 2:That was uncomfortable In the way that you're thinking like I have three, not a hairstaff. Three-foot-long hair I mean, people thought I was Willie Robertson. I mean I was signing autographs, they were throwing them away. But as far as uncomfortable long hair, oh my God, that was terrible. Right, I mean yours did, but it was a while. What about what? Yesterday was the first time I shaved since I got out of the Army. Wow, november 10th 2018. It feels comfortable. Now You're getting comfortable.
Speaker 1:There. You're getting into a comfort zone.
Speaker 2:My jawline is gone. I'm working on that.
Speaker 3:What's something you did that made more people uncomfortable and, like God, Joe, you shouldn't have done that.
Speaker 2:Oh, probably putting the horns on the hood, yeah, but you know, when I put horns on a bentley the day I bought it was, people just said he don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the way it is that's it's so great, but it's that it's it. It's that it's that differentiator, right, like it's stuff that people, that's what gets people's minds like getting people to know you. I just had a. I did another podcast with someone and they said here's an experiment for all of us on the call today. Here guys, wes and Joe, what color is a yield sign? Yellow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yellow or orange or red, yellow, right, they haven't been yellow since 1972 or 1974. They're white with a red outline that says yield on it. Really, there was some red, this one. Everyone thinks that they're getting attention, right, but your attention has to be so different. Oh, such a differentiator. Right, you have to like people. I didn't.
Speaker 1:I was born in 1976, so I never even saw a yellow yield sign. Yeah Right, like, but I still. But for some reason my brain thinks it's yellow because I haven't, I haven't thought about it enough. Right, there hasn't been still. But for some reason my brain thinks it's yellow because I haven't, I haven't thought about it enough. Right, there hasn't been enough of a differentiator. There hasn't been bulls, bullhorns on the yield sign to make me think that like, really, to make me pay attention to it, right. Another thing you said, wes, was the, the watch me, I like that man, I like that as an. Isn't that like the attitude of watch me, go out and do it Like I'm like, if you don't think this is going to work, watch me how much is that 100% of people make it.
Speaker 2:Are you going to be the one? It's that simple. Everybody is going to be. They're not going to make it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you feel like I do? To be they're not going to make it. Yeah, do you feel like I do? Sometimes I have delusional optimism. Like I am so optimistic about the things that I do, some people might think I'm delusional, but I don't, I can do it.
Speaker 2:I mean, you talk about crazy stuff that you sticks out. Look at this. Do you see what that says right there? I don't no, hulk Hogan, and he wrote Trump 24. We met Hulk Hogan the day after he tore his shirt off and said vote for Donald Trump.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, and that was another thing where we were like we went to an event thought he was going to do autographs. There was a huge line. They came out and said he's not doing autographs. We're like, okay, well, screw that.
Speaker 2:We're going to go around back where he's going to walk out the door and see if we can catch him there. So his driver was driving the Escalade same one as my wife, diesel and everything. So I go over there and we hit it off and I'm like, hey man, do you think Hulk would sign my hot rod? And I've got a 37 Ford Coupe out there with suicide doors. He's like man, you don't get around too good, you better park it right here, right before he gets in. So he told me where to park the car and we stood out there and waited and Hulk comes out and I mean he's been an inspiration. You know hero in my life, you know Donald Trump's a hero, but I mean my dad even looked up to him and you know my dad would win fishing tournaments and get up there, and you know go out and do the pose yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean we just Hulk Hogan's been a real American hero for a long time.
Speaker 3:But we again, we took a chance and went out there and tried and it and it happened and nobody else was out there. That's it.
Speaker 1:People are not willing to take the chance.
Speaker 2:No, and I told him I said Hulk, I got to tell you this. He said what's that? I said you ripping your shirt off yesterday and saying vote for Trump was the second greatest thing in American history. And he goes well, what was the first? And I said you, you know trump getting shot and yelling fight, fight, fight.
Speaker 1:I mean he's like you're right. So, yeah, crazy time, yeah, for sure, but those are, those are the things. So, for people listening like it's get doing those things that make you may make you uncomfortable. There's great things on the other side of that. Right, you know how many people want wine, that's right. So now, from from that kind of what we talked about and taking those leaps, now you guys are working on an energy. The energy drink is almost ready, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's coming.
Speaker 1:So the energy drink is almost coming. You got wine coming all around the brand black and white. Black and white it's. It's pretty cool to me that roofing is almost becoming a means to an end for you. Would that be a a decent thing to say I won't? I?
Speaker 2:won't stop doing it. You know, we still have a lifetime warranty. We still answer the phone. We still take care of everybody. We, we still have a lifetime warranty. We still answer the phone. We still take care of everybody. We, we still do insurance claims.
Speaker 2:But I don't put, I put zero effort into it. Honestly, now I do communicate with customers. My wife runs the company, she works full time and I work on land deals constantly. You know, I'm constantly at city meetings talking to aldermen and mayors and things like that. Well, I think we, we just got approved the day after Trump won. So I had the newspaper and I said you know, go Trump. But yeah, we focus on stuff like that. You know, I mean, we're actually where we're sitting. It's a conference room, it's at a shop at my house. You said you were part of like a mastermind or whatever. I kind of dated that, although I don't call it that. I call it the founders organization. We're the founders of whatever that is and we talk about things and help each other and we have several business people in the group. Doesn't cost no money. We just work and help each other and give advice and I like to say we shoot holes in each other's bulletproof plans. Yeah, one of my partners is 80 years old and he's.
Speaker 1:We got a hundred thousand bucks in the bank together, you know you, you get different, uh, different different opinions and it I love that too. Being uncomfortable, too is is having, is being able to listen to people who have other like are willing to shoot those holes in your plan, right, like and taking that in, and and you know, sometimes you know I've been in mastermind groups for a long time and it's like sometimes you want to, you're like, yeah, that's the right thing and I didn't even think about it. And sometimes you're like you know what thanks for your, thanks for your opinion, but I'm going to Like you know what Thanks for your opinion, but I'm going to go and learn my lesson. You know, yeah, how has that? So you did that in your local area, right? Like? The founders group is a bunch of more local business people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. I only surround myself with people nowadays that are talking business and getting better. That's the only people I talk to anymore um, and that's how is this.
Speaker 1:How does that? How did that? How did that come to be? Like, did people see you guys around a lot and you just started meeting people that were also, you know, successful in their own rights and brought it like kind of said hey, let's have lunch together, or what? How did that? How did that?
Speaker 3:come to be I roofed their house.
Speaker 2:They're like wow, you're an honest guy, You're doing a great job. Before you know it, I'm like what do you do? And then, before you know it, we're business partners. It's the art of the deal, it's the art of the deal.
Speaker 3:We're the customer, so a lot of them are customers, and then we end up hiring somebody and they do a good job. In our area, finding somebody that does a good job in anything is really hard. We've got a term for it, called being Ozark.
Speaker 2:That's the other reason we've got to be famous, because everybody lives in Kansas City and St Louis. These are all second, third, fourth, fifth homes. They don't know who you are when they come into town and they're driving down and they see that big flag. You know, a couple miles down the road, on the left, they're going to see the world's largest Trump sign made out of white.
Speaker 1:Lights up at night and that's us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so like door knocking doesn't Really work in our area. We can't really Like advertise on the radio throughout the week. It would have to be on the weekend and nobody's really listening To the radio. They're all out on their boat or that's right bar at a concert or something. So we those those normal things don't work here.
Speaker 2:You have to make noise well, we also went as far. As you know. I did a podcast with dimitri and he asked me you know something about? Does it hurt you in any way going all in on donald trump? And I said let me be very clear If you don't support Donald Trump, I don't want to roof your house. You know it's a. That's how I feel.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of people walk that line too, and they, they, you know, if they feel passionate about something, they won't express it through their business, but and we were on the verge of communism and my wife came from china, I mean she voted republican yeah we don't want that and and so that expression filters people right, like on the, on the marketing, on the way in.
Speaker 1:there are qualifying questions that we ask right, or the way that we, that we put our messaging out there, it'll qualify, qualify people, and so you're, you're qualifying who you want to work with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, honestly, I mean we get, we get calls because people like cause I guess people are scared to voice that opinion. Not as much right now, probably, but we were never. We never hid from it the whole time. You know this place never wore a mask. We, you know we place, never wore a mask. We got through it all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and our area is pretty libertarian in nature, just like we didn't want to do the COVID thing. There's a lot of conservative people here and, just like anywhere, you have different groups moving from other states that aren't so free to their area, and I don't think we've really had that effect here to the point where, like, they're trying to change our area but we're just kind of in a great place to vacation and live and free and nobody bothers anybody, um, and I think we just got to a point where we got tired of people harassing us for the way that we felt and believed and we're like this is just who we are, if you don't like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, double down on it, man, let them know, right? So I want to talk to you a little bit about you've had you expressed when we were chatting earlier. You were expressing, man, there's some struggles along the way and sometimes going after the big thing might not be the right thing, if I'm going to put it that way Right, going out there and recruiting a bunch of sales reps and I've found this with a lot of with with many companies over the years. My neighbor has a company like this. He does three $4 million a year. It's him and a business partner and a couple of guys and you know a woman in the office that runs the office and and and he doesn't want to grow at all.
Speaker 1:Like, he has a very, a very like he's very happy they make good money. They, you know he has other business ventures that he that he does make good money. They, you know he has other business ventures that he that he does. I know another past client of ours who went down the route of hiring a bunch of sales reps and decided, man, I don't want to be a sales manager anymore. Like, this is not the job that I want. And so he pulled it back in and said look, this is where I'm real comfortable here. And he goes out and he sells about $3 million a year and makes a really good living, and you know what I mean Like how's that journey been for you guys?
Speaker 3:Well, we I mean, like you said, we've we tried all that. We've had 20 salespeople, we've tried to grow and have two or three offices and and, just like you described, joe tried it and he's like I don't want to do it anymore. I tried it and that was kind of with hesitance. I'm like I really don't think this is the way to go. I think we should just hire some hourly people and stay smaller. And he's like, oh no, that won't work. And so we tried the 20 sales guys again and then we got back down to where it's him and I selling, his wife is at the office. We've got a project manager and you know hourly guy that kind of helped with whatever Um, and it's a lot less stressful.
Speaker 2:Put it this way you sell the same amount of roofs. If you have two people, that are good, or 20 people, cause you're literally doing all the work anyway, we sell the same amount of roofs every year, doesn't matter how many people. Yeah, you find yourself doing the work and then they're getting paid.
Speaker 3:Help them out.
Speaker 2:And then they start their own company and screw you and then, and then they end up failing.
Speaker 3:Not paying their supplier. Yeah, they don't realize what goes into it. So that's why we've talked about maybe doing some franchising or like for the smaller, maybe a couple or small business that doesn't want to grow and do big but wants to make a good living and has an opportunity for roofing in their area, maybe a smaller area.
Speaker 2:I mean a big city too.
Speaker 3:You know we got calls. We're what? Two and a half hours away from St Louis. We've had people call us in St Louis who have called roofers in St Louis, and they will tell them well, that's outside of our service area.
Speaker 3:So the roofing company has a service area that they only stay in, which means there's room to grow in that area. For you know somebody? We tried to go up and start an office office, but trying to go back and forth and spreading ourselves then and train, and it's just too stressful when you got as much going on as we do. We'd rather just do it ourselves.
Speaker 1:So and that's it like. So where do you think what's the sweet spot for you guys?
Speaker 3:probably in that. Like you said, three to five million in a smaller area, yeah, and it doesn't matter again me and west and me and west.
Speaker 2:And my wife can do that, that's right.
Speaker 1:I mean just by maintaining popularity I I had, uh, my friend deshaun brian on a couple of episodes ago and and we were talking about, like you know, honestly, you, honestly, you know, if you have a rep selling 500,000, that's, that's not even like you're not even. You know, if you're a million, the way that I, the way that I put it is, you're like a good, a good high school athlete, right, you haven't even made it to college or the pros yet yet.
Speaker 1:You guys could go sell $2 million each, probably pretty effectively, I would assume.
Speaker 2:I don't think it should be $1 million or $2 million. How many customers did you sell? I'm telling you, the average person I had work here had 19 customers in a year. That's pathetic. That is, I was at 130 by myself, not even working in the roofing company, working full time at the farm, at the zoo, taking care of land development, just on the phone, not even meeting the customer.
Speaker 3:I think AI is going to play a big role moving forward in the company and industry too, because once you, have Cheers to big time. Once you have your marketing down and you've got a flow of customers coming in, you know we've built checklists throughout, uh, the company, so we've got every single step and every step to prevent this from happening or that and do that um, so we can really give that to ai too, as far as like after this happens, this is the communication you need to make.
Speaker 3:That's right. So then we can just shoot out those text messages.
Speaker 2:I'm fully confident we can do it that you know I could. If somebody I'm just throwing out a number If somebody wanted to give me $50,000 by the franchise, I'll show you how to be me. You take. You become the most popular person in your town overnight. Yep, easily.
Speaker 3:Just by what we're doing, because I'm tired of people stealing it.
Speaker 2:I'd rather just sell it to you, that's right.
Speaker 1:I'd rather just get it stolen. But that's the thing, man. It's the attention first. Do you think the attention comes first? Everyone focuses on the other stuff. Everyone focuses on that procedure on that. Like okay, who does what? When's my dumpster going to be there on time or not? Like when without the attention? It's probably the attention is what drives that 130 something customers you said right, like it's that attention that you've built up, that now the phone won't stop ringing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and that and just I think we may talk. Talked last time too about making it a lifestyle, like even though we don't focus on roofing as much, we're still in black and white stuff when we go to a city meeting or we go to a church function. So we're making our presence known, and then everybody always brings up the conversation oh, how's roofing? And, like you said, you're nurturing those relationships in your community.
Speaker 1:When they do need a roof. Hopefully they're going to at least consider us when they uh know it's time that, yeah that. So if you guys were to start over again, attention first, do it yourself. Build your businesses up. Um, do you think a lot of time gets wasted in the roofing industry on that? You?
Speaker 2:have to grow and be big yeah. Yeah, Every the whole roofing. I mean, let's be honest. The roofing industry is. The shingle companies own the roofing industry and then it's this huge cycle of sales guys screwing over the owner and just becoming the and it just keeps growing Owners starting companies, screwing over sales guys.
Speaker 3:It's horrible.
Speaker 2:Just everybody, copy off me and you'll be fine. Yeah, just pay me and we'll franchise. We'll just do one more state to start.
Speaker 1:Just give Joe royalty. Yeah, it's all good 25%.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think a lot of like you'll be a millionaire in six months.
Speaker 2:You'd be a dumb, you and me. Be on my team, that's right. You can't be, unfortunately. I'm Michael Jordan. Well, kobe Bryant, really I can be Michael Jordan, we see a lot of these like training systems and franchises.
Speaker 3:We've talked to a couple of like roofing franchises that are out there about franchising and we're like, well, we're actually considering it, maybe we can do something together.
Speaker 2:And they're like, you know, we've gone through that and really the way that all that is set up is really just a sales pitch.
Speaker 3:It seems like for that company to make money not to eventually help that person. I mean, yeah, really, I think a smaller roofing franchise for a smaller guy would be more beneficial in the long run than a training trying to get them to open five offices. Have a hundred sales guys.
Speaker 2:I mean every one of these speakers at every one of these conferences leaves you wondering more. At the end, Nobody helps anybody. Nobody's being honest at all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Of like the dozens of conferences we've gone to, I try to sit in some of the classes. I think Joe just figured out the first year. He's like this is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:I'm here to network with people. That's it, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. You sit through them and then at the end it's like for 1995, call me, I'll tell you the secret to this?
Speaker 2:Nobody. The secret is get really popular and do it with as little amount of people as possible.
Speaker 3:You and your wife, somebody you trust, amount of people as possible you and your wife, somebody you trust, yeah, and actually do the work to where you understand everything. You know every aspect. But, yeah, once you've worked every aspect of the entire company and the business and the industry like you, you can understand in your area what's going on, what needs to happen in your business, what you're lacking in, why you should do this or why you shouldn't do that. You can start to weigh your options. When a decision comes up and we just try to roof it right every time so that we can give people a lifetime warranty and make sure that we don't have people upset because their roof's leaking, and that also generates more marketing and business.
Speaker 2:Call these guys? Yeah, we don't do any repairs. Zero, yeah, if it's not a full roof. I can't help you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that is because of insurance, because the way that and I don't know if a lot of roofers know this.
Speaker 3:I'm sure there's a lot of roofers. Well, you got to know when to walk away from jobs. They handle insurance claims, but how many of them have read their business insurance policy?
Speaker 2:Probably not a whole lot, and I would wager to bet because I've read his business policy.
Speaker 3:But I haven't. And it says that once we touch a roof for a repair, we own that whole roof and it's our liability if it leaks again.
Speaker 3:So unless there's another policy out there, maybe for guys that are doing 90% repairs or they've got a special contract worked up. I mean, if a customer comes back and says you screwed up my roof, I mean you're either going to take the lashing online that you screwed up their roof or you're going to fix it, and it's going to cost you money. Take the lashing online that you screwed up the roof or you're going to fix it, and it's going to cost you money. And it's kind of a no win situation unless you at least do like a facet or or a slope and there's other like things in there that the insurance doesn't cover. So, like on flat roofs, it specifically says that we are not covered if we do a spray foam roof. So I mean, no one told us that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had to read it, but it's in your business insurance policy by alien debris.
Speaker 3:I think if our stuff is in the storage unit, that's the only time.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm saying, now that there's aliens, are we covered?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:Why is the world not freaking out more about that? I mean mean, why is it on the front page of the paper?
Speaker 1:it ain't on there it's not on it, not at all. Yeah, but that's a, that's something. That man, what like that is something that no one looks at it, that that I have never heard that I've had I've never heard you know 230 episodes of talking to roofers and no one's talked about their business policy and what's in it. Yeah, that's a scary thing, yeah.
Speaker 3:I got Wes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. That's why you got Wes, that's right.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, the reason I read it is we've had a way, while we had one, I think, maybe we've had two insurance claims and again, that's another thing that those two people can't ever say. Well, these guys didn't honor their work um. One of them were doing a roof.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those were learning experience.
Speaker 3:For sure, this one was kind of a scam situation, but I mean it is on us. We uh were replacing a roof. The guy already had an insurance claim, had water damage inside because his roof was in such a bad shape. We went out to roof it there a chance of rain, but it looked like it was not going to rain. On all of the weather apps and radars and weather people said this area it's not going to rain. Sure enough, we get the roof tore off. It rained 60-mile-an-hour winds 60-mile-an-hour winds.
Speaker 3:Well, and we saw it.
Speaker 3:We monitored it the whole time. Saw it coming, tarped the roof an hour before the storm got there. The storm ripped the tarps off, it rained inside and then the customer immediately locked us out of the house, wouldn't let us try and drive anything or do anything, filed another claim, Remodeled his house Against us, and yeah, that's the other thing. If you're using subcontractors, you've got to kind of look at what that insurance covers. That's right. If your subcontractor says I didn't do it right, then their insurance is scot-free. That's what happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we ended up covering it instead of a subcontractor that did make a mistake and it's a learning experience. But I read through the whole policy. The whole time was trying to go back and forth with them on what should be and shouldn't be covered, and I would recommend people do that before you have a claim, just so you're you're aware. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:So what should people do? First Read their policy, I would say right, make sure that your subs have insurance, of course, but do you get a copy of their policy and see what's covered under that? How deep do you go there, wes?
Speaker 3:Well, so we're pretty lucky. We do have a really good insurance agent, which I was an insurance adjust adjuster. So that's kind of why I understand the policy language. But yeah, a lot of agents are just sales guys. Like a lot of roofers are sales guys, they really don't. Not a lot of them haven't picked up a nail gun or a hammer and put any shingles on. Ever um same thing with an insurance agent. So number one would be to find a really good agent that understands policy and can go over it with you. But I guess the first step would be get a copy of your policy and your subs policy, spend some time, read through it and highlight things that you're like. What does this mean? Does this mean I'm not covered if I put spray foam on? Does this mean that I'm not covered if I repair a roof and it's leaking? Because it's not my fault and I wouldn't sometimes?
Speaker 3:lawyers can be helpful in reading that, but most of the time not. You know, legal documents are kind of written in a different way than insurance policy language, so what might mean one thing by a lawyer means a different thing by an insurance company. So I would find a good agent that can answer those questions for you. But definitely go through it, highlight stuff that's concerning and then review it with them, yeah, and see if that's something you're doing a lot of.
Speaker 3:Maybe you need to add additional coverage to your policy to make sure that you're covered if that happens, Because I mean it doesn't matter what or who you are, you're one good insurance claimer, away from kind of being in a mess, that's right. Especially in a commercial world.
Speaker 1:It's not just a financial mess, man. To me, getting into those types of situations, it becomes a mental mess too. Right, it's like the amount of mental effort that goes into those type of situations really can change the course of your business. All right, so now I want to kind of switch gears into roofing as a means to an end. Maybe that's not exactly what you're doing, you're building things alongside of it, but the experience that you've gotten in building and marketing the roofing company seems to have led to other opportunities. Right, and how has that? What has that path been for you? What was the like? Where did the? When did it become apparent that, man, we're making good money here and there's other opportunities that?
Speaker 3:I could get involved in. What sparked that? I think, the lack of it being really enjoyable. You know, at some point when you love what you're doing, that's all you want to do, but when you kind of take that turn where you're like man, this just isn't as fun as it was. It's not what I want to do all the time. We're really good at it.
Speaker 2:Well it's not a challenge anymore. Yeah, that's the problem. I'm a competitor. And what people don't understand is you know, I've been in business for going on eight years. Tomorrow I turned 38, you know, um, and we've, we've done a lot. I mean we've made a lot of money. Uh, we learned a lot, but we became experts. And when I say I'm Kobe Bryant, I mean I haven't. I've been working 20 years. You know, I built this thing when everybody else was sleeping. You know, I'm working a lot of hours.
Speaker 3:And it gets to the point where the insurance company I mean, it's a constant grind. They, they make it so difficult, you know, and yes, sometimes it can be easy, but a lot of times it's not, and they're making it harder and harder on guys to take care of customers, which that's also to blame. You know, some, some roofing companies in the industry have created that part too, so kind of can blame them, you kind of can't. And then you've got you know the customer situation where we end up working for people and then you think everything's going good and all of a sudden you put a whole bunch of time into something for nothing. And this is common. I mean it's common, yeah, it's common in the industry.
Speaker 1:Well, it's common in everything. I mean Elon Musk has a rocket company.
Speaker 2:He started PayPal. You know, I started my first company was gumball machines, then I sold shrimp on the side of the road at gas stations and then now I got a roofing company, and then I turned it into wine and eventually energy drinks, and my ultimate goal is I want to be Donald Trump. I mean, I want to have real estate and it's fun learning something.
Speaker 3:Like you said, like roofing and insurance really just aren't challenging. It doesn't keep your mind like interested.
Speaker 2:We're playing the game of life here.
Speaker 3:So we got into doing real estate and we're learning about that and, uh, tax sales I bought developing land.
Speaker 2:I bought like every. I bought every tax sale in both. Well, every tax sale in miller county and then almost I mean a bunch in camden county. I bought like 94 properties this year and basically we did that and I'm doing it like it's a school. You know it's a transaction, you know I'm yeah, every one of these properties. You got to do this, then you got to do this, then you got to do this, then you got to do this.
Speaker 1:So but that is that's, that's an interesting thing because the chat it gets to a point where it's where the challenge does go away when you know when it, when you're, when everything, when most of the things of your day-to-day become the subconscious right.
Speaker 1:It's like I just do this in my sleep, right, and it is really fun to go out and learn that next thing. I was in the real estate and mortgage industry years ago and when the market crashed and then came back, I went back into the mortgage industry and all of the new regulations that came out of it made it not fun at all. You know so, as as as we start going through that and the the the fights with the insurance company become more and more prevalent and the you know it, it weighs on you, man, like it's, not as it's, and not that you just want to, you know, be able to do roofs. You want to take care of the customers, and when their insurance company is fighting back so hard that you have, you can't even take care of your customers. It's a like that. That's where I feel it becomes a big problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes you frustrated with the insurance company, really mad at them, and it's not even your house or your job, but you're just mad for them because you know how bad that they're getting taken advantage of and there's really not a lot you can do about it. And you know they can't either, because by the time they were to hire a lawyer or a PA, there's not. It doesn't make financial sense for them and the insurance companies know that that's right.
Speaker 3:What do you think a solution to that might be right, like I don't know that is, if, if insurance companies would come to an agreement that, hey, if you provide your labor costs and your material costs, we will agree to pay this margin on top of that. And if a company can do that margin, great. But whatever that maybe take the average of what the margin is of companies in the area and say, hey, they're doing 30, they're doing 50. How about 40?
Speaker 2:I think the real problem is that the insurance company. The adjuster should be third party or something. You know what I mean. Why is the insurance company making the rules of what gets paid for?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's kind of crazy, that's kind of how it used to be before. Xactimate is, an adjuster would find out what that average price was in the area and you know, if the cheap guy wasn't going to do it the right way, the expensive guy couldn't get to it. But this guy can do it and he's still a little bit more than the average price. Yeah, that's okay, that's within reason. Yeah, within range, yeah. But then you've also got contractors that always want to get like the most out of the insurance company possible. But if we could just say, hey, this is what we need to do the job right and this is a margin we need, and maybe that's different for every company and maybe there's a range that insurance will pay.
Speaker 3:A customer picks their contractor, hey, send us, we'll pay you a fair margin on top of that. That would solve a lot of the back and forth. But I don't think the insurance companies want to be fair on that end. They want to try and not pay for some things, and I think the contractors don't want to settle for a fair amount sometimes either so, and then there's too much variance in the whole industry between everybody.
Speaker 1:You never get anyone to agree. Yeah, there's a lot of variance. What? Where do you guys? Where do you guys price? Are you? Are you the high end in your market? Are you, are you somewhere in the middle?
Speaker 3:I know you're not the low end, but no, we've kind of gone back and forth on between like not quite the highest and then the middle, so we're kind of like somewhere in there, maybe 75%, but we also. That's not really a fair assessment because a lot of the other people don't. Well, they're cutting corners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not bidding apples for apples.
Speaker 3:So if it was, apples, I would say we'd be like middle of the road, but then we ended up being higher because people are saying they're going to do what we're doing, but they're really not.
Speaker 2:But put it this way the price that we give you, we can't go a dollar less. I mean we're fair, we're pricing it fair to do it right every time. Yeah, I mean I roof your house the way I roof my mom's house, my grandma's house, my house, my aunt and uncle's house. That's right. It's going to be done right every time. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that race to the bottom and cutting corners is, I mean, it's terrible. How do you express the quality of work that you do versus those other estimates that people are getting?
Speaker 3:I'm just honest with them and I mean that's one thing that's hard to get.
Speaker 2:Who has a lifetime warranty besides us?
Speaker 3:and actually stands behind it Is going and saying hey, at the end of the day, if we're more than somebody else, I'd love the opportunity to sit down with you and go over their estimate and ours. We can figure out what the differences are, and then I could tell you what our price would be if I didn't have those things. But we're not willing to cut those corners, so yeah, and sometimes that's just not what people want.
Speaker 3:You know I think we talked a little before we started that it's a little slower in the area, and a lot of that has to do with storm after storm after storm and people don't want to redo it. And some of the people that do, they really just they've been through an insurance claim and now they want to maybe try and keep some of the money instead of getting the work done right. And I think, like you mentioned, there's a cycle. Well, everybody's been struggling for four years too. Yeah, you mentioned there's a cycle. Everybody's been struggling for four years too. In a couple years, I think, we're going to have another storm and they're going to realize, hey, that first time it was pretty easy and I didn't have any problems. Then I went with this other company and it was cheaper and I had a little bit of money left over, or I thought I was going to and I really didn't, but my roof's leaking and that wasn't a good experience.
Speaker 2:My biggest problem is these guys come in and they say they're the one-stop shop. I'll lose a job over that. I'm like guys, you don't understand what you're doing. I don't want all your money. I just want to kick ass on your roof and give you a lifetime warranty. This guy's hungry for money, telling you he's going to do everything. He's going to fail trying to find the cheapest subcontractor to get it done and he's going to get screwed because he's not going to get general contractor overhead and profit that's something else, that we are not where we are
Speaker 3:I don't know that we've talked about. We've tried being the general contractor and doing the roof and the gutters, and the siding, and the windows and the doors and all that and it. I don't have any good labor. Yeah, occasionally it works out, but in an area where your subcontractors and labor are tight, it it doesn't. At the end of the day, they're happy with you over the roof, but they're not happy because of the time frame, that the other thing's happening and the quality or whatever, and you'd still make it right. Well, you've ended up losing money or making less money than you would have just done doing the roof. That's right.
Speaker 3:So one thing that we've done is hey, yeah, we might be a little bit more on the roof. We're happy to try and help you get that paid for by insurance, but insurance is not paying enough for your gutters and siding and all this other stuff to hire a general contractor for it. We know some good subcontractors. We'll refer them directly to you and we know they'll take care of you.
Speaker 2:You subcontractors will refer them directly to you and we know they'll take care of you.
Speaker 1:You can pay them directly and save yourself, you know, some time and money on. Yeah, keep we. We only do, yeah, roofs, yeah, how was that decision made? You guys, you guys did try doing gc, work at our other trades too and like, like you mentioned you, just can't. That was where your skill set was that's where the labor, the better labor, is in your area. Like you found better subcontractors to work with on that. Like what was the decision to say?
Speaker 3:So to do all of it. I think the decision is sometimes when you're working with insurance you know they may be paying a little less here but a little more there and you can make sure you get everything covered. You can get general contractor overhead and profit which you can maybe move around if they're less on that or this, and again it just boils down to having the margin you need at the end of the day and that would make it easy. But fighting for general contractor and overhead and profit on roofing to cover the the lack of payment on the gutters or siding, it gets kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Well then it drags it on too. It drags it on forever.
Speaker 3:And then you're also waiting on subcontractors that say we'll be there next week and they say that for five weeks in a row. And then you're in the middle saying, hey, sorry, these guys said they were going to be there. They said they're going to be there on this day. Now they're not there, they're not there, they're not there. And then you look like an idiot. Yeah, but then trying to also hire people that work for you exclusively to do that is a challenge here. So on a busy weekend we may have a million or two million or more people, but then, like right now, winter's here. Each town has a population of about 2,000 and they're all like 20 minutes apart around the lake.
Speaker 2:We live in a pretty small area really, yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's a lot of homes, but not a lot of full-time residents, not a lot of full-time residents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were talking about where, where my lake place is. It's the same way up there, man, like it's very similar little small towns, two, three, 4,000, you, you know, biggest town in the area might be eight thousand, you know, and and they're all, but that's, you know, an hour and a half away. You know that. And so I found a lot of challenges in in those in the small market, and I think one of the advantages that you guys have is is if you do quality work, you communicate well in those areas. You guys have is, if you do quality work and you communicate well in those areas, my goodness, man, like you, there is such a gap between you and most of the people in the area, most of the other contractors in the area. Have you guys found that? Like I mean, you guys compete very heavily, but how much is there really? Is there a lot of competition in your market or is it just a lot of really?
Speaker 2:I can't handle. Yeah we can't really handle any more work. I mean yeah.
Speaker 3:I think, as far as the competition goes, like the best way to put it is there's one company that's, you know, really a sales company, and they're driving, you know, spend more finance, double what insurance is paying, and they're driving it. Spend more finance, double what insurance is paying. Yeah, I don't do that. And then we just give them a price to do it right and try to get insurance to that point, and if they don't, we tell them the difference. This is what we need. And then it seems like everybody else is just trying to do it the cheapest you know, or try to get the job. Hey, they're doing it for $10,000. We'll do it for for 11,500.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what I wish would happen. I wish every customer would case net the owner of the company because they'd know who to pick Case.
Speaker 3:net me, you're not going to find anything.
Speaker 1:I had a secret security fence in the Army Case. Net some of these other companies.
Speaker 2:You're going to find out. Their wife owns the company because they're hiding from garnishments from Meeks Building Supply and other construction companies and stuff they never paid off and that they don't want to pay. I mean, well, I'm all for like there's some stuff out there.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying people don't deserve a second chance Like a lot of times, people that have records end up being some of your best employees or partners or whatever. But when you find a business owner that's consistently got the same thing happening that they're doing to customers, you probably might not want to be the next one on their list.
Speaker 1:That leaves clues that might mean they might not be around, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:I always send customers my ID and say look me up and ask my competitors to send you theirs, and I bet you they won't. I get the job every time.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What convinced you to do the lifetime warranty Honestly, and how do you manage the risk on the other side of that?
Speaker 3:Well, one of the big reasons I think he did it was because we know and in our warranty it states um, if you have a problem, we need to come address it first. You can't hire someone else to come fix our roof and then say, oh, it's leaking after they fixed it.
Speaker 3:So that gives us an opportunity to I want them to call me when it's leaking go look at the roof right, and then we can say hey, yeah, you know, sorry about this, we did screw up, we're going to take care of it. Or we can say well, it looks like you actually had another wind or hailstorm, or a tree fell on your roof.
Speaker 3:And then we can, you know, be a foot at least have our foot in the door to re-roof that house again, um which up until a couple years ago we hadn't done any multiple roofs on the same house or for the same customer. But then that has finally come around.
Speaker 3:We're, we're doing that again, uh yeah, that took seven years but yeah, the the biggest thing about 1500 customers at least, is this probably it gives them peace of mind. Now I would say half of the people still think it's a gimmick, like we're not actually giving a life. But we really are like, if it's something we did, we're going to take care of you. If it's a gimmick, like we're not actually giving a life, but we really are Like, if it's something we did, we're going to take care of you. If it's a shingle defect, we're going to help you make sure that that gets taken care of. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And most I mean most competitors probably have a one-year warranty with, because that's how long the caulk is going to last.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because that's what the Mexicans are giving. You is one year.
Speaker 3:That's what the Mexicans are giving you is one year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got a project manager on the job site and just make sure it's done right every time and we hire the best guys that are honest, you know, and we do we've replaced the flashing.
Speaker 3:We install live. So we follow the code. Where, even when there's not code, we we do it. So we know that it's not going to do it right.
Speaker 1:If somebody calls hey, my chimney's leaking.
Speaker 3:I'm at least 80% positive. It's not our flashing job that's doing it, because we've done it to such a high standard that it can't leak there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, black and white roofs are right every time.
Speaker 3:So more than likely, it's probably the chimney has a crack or, you know, the masonry needs to be redone.
Speaker 2:I honestly, I mean I sleep good at night knowing that we don't have roofs leaking, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're out, we're working on other stuff.
Speaker 3:Kind of people call us that say, hey, this company did my roof last year and it's leaking. I've called them, tried to get them to come fix it. They won't come fix it. Will you come fix it? And we're like well, here's our advice to you. Try and get them to fix it however you can, because if we come fix it, they probably have something in their warranty similar to ours that they're going to not take care of you because we touched it. But at the end of the day, if they always have, and try to get us to work for them, yeah, every time and it just blows up we get a lot of calls that way and I just like when he said I sleep good at night.
Speaker 3:I don't know how those people do sleep good at night when they're getting all those calls saying you screwed my house up. This is the most important part of the house when it rains and now my house is ruined because you didn't do it right.
Speaker 1:And that's why I think I always encourage, like anyone who I think if you have the right intentions in your business, you're you're doing quality work, like the lifetime warranty. It doesn't make sense not to for me in, in my opinion, because you can honestly have a roofing company and not have a lifetime warranty.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, how can you put a roof on someone's house, then it leaks and then you not fix it? It just yeah so that's where I'm at. I mean what, even if I didn't give them one, would still give them one. Yeah, I mean you got, you have to all right, joe, I know that.
Speaker 1:I know that you have strong opinions on a lot of things. Let's give uh, let's kind of wrap this up on on joe's thoughts on the roofing industry and where it's going.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think that it was a modern-day gold rush and I think it's going to end up going out the door. I don't know how quick that is, but after going down to Augusta, georgia and helping with the hurricane relief and seeing the way the insurance companies treated everybody Nobody got a new roof, hardly, I mean everybody. I saw from one shingle to 57 shingles being replaced. They didn't give a shit. I mean, they paid for it to remove those guys trees that cut their house in half, you know and rebuild some stuff. But yeah, it was, I was. It was pretty sad to see. It was a little nuts and that was just Augusta Georgia where I was at. I mean, it was the entire East Coast. I don't know if you're paying attention to all that, but man, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a mess out there.
Speaker 2:I'm not kidding you. When everybody cleared the trees up to get it close to the road for FEMA, I mean both sides of the highway, as high as the cab of the truck on both sides, and you're just driving through the place like trying not to hit trees. It was the craziest thing I've ever seen. I think that the roofing industry, I think the I mean there's still a lot of money to be made in it Make a lot of money Like let's make a bunch of millionaires Everybody, you know franchise black and white, but it ain't going to last for 30 more years.
Speaker 3:It won't be as easy.
Speaker 2:But it only takes one year to be a millionaire. I mean, just get on the train.
Speaker 3:I think you're going to see it in the future roofing a lot of supply companies trying to make deals with insurance companies directly. Well, they're already trying to buy them all up.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've had 300, because 300 big corporations try to buy me and I've been not interested. I put my heart and soul into this.
Speaker 3:I'm not selling and I don't know. I'd rather die and give it to my kids I don't know what happened with srs.
Speaker 3:I know that home depot bought them to try and partner and see if they could sell more out of the pro desk, but before that even came up, srs had one of their videos that they were working on making deals with insurance companies and then hiring the subs directly to save the insurance companies money, guarantee that they made more sales and materials industry more successful and and uh, I just don't know that the little guy is going to have a ton of insurance claims in the future. I think you're going to go more retail, um, and I really love our retail.
Speaker 2:What happens when there's no Mexicans to roof them? I mean, that's a big concern.
Speaker 1:There's definitely labor concerns if that well, the robots are coming, joe.
Speaker 3:They're on their way. I did see a roofing robot that puts a roof on, but it's pretty slow.
Speaker 2:I say getting while the game's good and it's good still.
Speaker 1:It's still good. That's right. Getting while it's good Awesome man, it was good to have any guys on again. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast. Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast. For more valuable content, visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom While there. Check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also join the Roofing Success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share and leave a comment. Your support helps us continue to bring you top industry insights. The website link is in the description. Thanks for listening.
